Pathfinder 1E "Page 42" for Pathfinder

coyote6

Adventurer
You can, but I think there's a conceptual difference at work here. With the table, you look for a difficulty set to the characters at their level and come up with the rationale afterwards to justify the DC. Ruemere, I think, prefers the opposite direction - set the DC appropriate to the specific case, don't worry about what's on par with the PCs' level.

I think that's not quite what he was suggesting; I think he was suggesting that the concept of levels be expanded (again). Right now (& at least the first three have been true since AD&D 1e, at least), spells have levels, characters have levels, monsters have levels (whether it be CR in 3.x, actual level in 4e, or effective level based on which random encounter chart they're on), encouters have levels, etc. Now, add obstacles and challenges to the list -- a DC 25 lock is a level X lock. The DC and the level are interchangeable.

You can choose obstacles with levels around your PCs', or you can choose obstacles with levels that seem right for the circumstance (or combine the two). Just like you can choose the opponents, really.
 

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The_Gneech

Explorer
Probably my example was bad when I mentioned a "10th level rogue." What I was getting at was that the rogue was in a "10th level dungeon."

Also, keep in mind that this table is designed to give you some target numbers; you can certainly tweak 'em any way you want. All this is really for is to give you a "level-appropriate" starting point so you have a reasonable idea of what your party can probably handle.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

ruemere

Adventurer
billd91,
spot on.

Still, it's just a matter of preference. My players like it when the encounters are unpredictably easy or difficult (though, to be fair, I often put some means of escaping TPK).

Regards,
Ruemere
 

Walking Dad

First Post
billd91,
spot on.

Still, it's just a matter of preference. My players like it when the encounters are unpredictably easy or difficult (though, to be fair, I often put some means of escaping TPK).

Regards,
Ruemere

Then see the table as a help for less experienced DM to find the 'medium/baseline' DC they can adjust to have an 'easy' lock for a 12th level group, and a 'difficult' diplomatic challenge for a level 5 group.

The tail doesn't wiggle the dog, if you decide it to be a difficult lock and look on a table what would be the base difficulty, you could raise by 4.
 

Noumenon

First Post
Question 1: Can I use this same table for 3.5, or is there a difference in how DCs are set? I see that the "Very Easy" column rises slowly from 10 to 15; in 3.5, a PC with no ability score and no skill points would need a 10 no matter what level, right?

If this table works in 3.5 I will sing your praises for an hour and go back to all the threads where I asked for someone to do this and post a link to your post.

Question 2: You seem to have set the skill challenge DCs at a 50/50 chance of success. Why not use as a model the post-errata page 42 DCs, which make an easy check DC a 5 at level 1, or a 75/25 chance of success? (I happen to think those are way too low, but a 50/50 shot at missing is pretty deadly in skill challenges.)

I just want to stress how great this table will be if it works. Bad guys getting away? Just run an impromptu skill challenge and see if the party can track them down with Gather Info from passersby or Ride checks on a commandeered horse.
 

Chronologist

First Post
This table is wonderful. Not only is it useful when calculating DCs for my own game, it's also a good baseline for difficulty when running a character in my friend's 3.5 game.
 

The_Gneech

Explorer
Question 1: Can I use this same table for 3.5, or is there a difference in how DCs are set? I see that the "Very Easy" column rises slowly from 10 to 15; in 3.5, a PC with no ability score and no skill points would need a 10 no matter what level, right?

If this table works in 3.5 I will sing your praises for an hour and go back to all the threads where I asked for someone to do this and post a link to your post.

Question 2: You seem to have set the skill challenge DCs at a 50/50 chance of success. Why not use as a model the post-errata page 42 DCs, which make an easy check DC a 5 at level 1, or a 75/25 chance of success? (I happen to think those are way too low, but a 50/50 shot at missing is pretty deadly in skill challenges.)

I just want to stress how great this table will be if it works. Bad guys getting away? Just run an impromptu skill challenge and see if the party can track them down with Gather Info from passersby or Ride checks on a commandeered horse.

Well, Pathfinder is designed to be "backwards compatible" so I would expect it to work for 3.5. That said, PfRPG is a bit more generous will skills all around, so you might want to keep the listed DCs for "specialists" and for everyone else knock the CR down a couple of notches.

And yes, a character with no ranks and no ability score should theoretically have a DC 10 from levels 1 - 20 for an easy challenge, assuming it's just them acting alone with no buffs. But in practice, most characters at least have "aid another" going on by the time the party gets the hang of using skills regularly, if not a party bard singing, "Make, make, make your skill check!" and such.

FWIW, I haven't seen the revised page 42. But for 3.x/Pathfinder, it's important for a skill challenge to have "non-skill roll" options to garner successes, because even with more generous skills, the Fighter (for instance) probably still won't be able to contribute by actually rolling on a skill. So it's generally assumed that the people making skill checks will be those who've actually invested in skills, while the people who don't have skills to speak of will be coming up with alternate ways to contribute (via Aid Another, spell use, or even just bashing down the appropriate door).

Remember that a skill challenge counts as a creature of the same CR ... so if you have a 10th level party, a CR 10 skill challenge is intended to take them all on, so to speak. If you've got a skill challenge as part of a larger encounter, it should be at least APL -1 or -2, which will make the DCs drop noticeably.

-The Gneech :cool:
 

Noumenon

First Post
should theoretically have a DC 10 from levels 1 - 20 for an easy challenge, assuming it's just them acting alone with no buffs. But in practice, most characters at least have "aid another" going on by the time the party gets the hang of using skills regularly

Well, it's good to state your assumptions openly. My group played for 15 years before I got there and never figured out "Aid Another," and I'm not planning to enlighten them because
  • It's kind of a cheesy, flavorless mechanic that would be better handled by using "DM's Best Friend" +2 bonuses for actual creative support actions
  • mechanically, the auto-successes against DC 10 at higher levels are dumb
  • the original skill challenge math from WotC led to all auto-successes if you used Aid Another, as shown by Stalker0 in Table 2 at http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...-skill-challenge-system-long-lots-tables.html.
 

Noumenon

First Post
The attack rolls, damage, etc., are all taken from the monster stats by CR. Generally speaking, you should stick to a CR 2-3 points lower than your average party level.

Where can I find "monster stats by CR"? I tried Googling d20pfsrd.org and looking in my beta playtest book.

That low damage expression at level 1 seemed a little high, so I checked out the first twelve CR 1 monsters from the 3.5 SRD (air elemental through giant worker ant). They do:
1d4 damage
1d4
1d4+2
1d4+4
1d4
1d6+3
1d8+1
1d6+4
1d6+1
1d4+1d4 fire
1d6 + 1 + paralysis
1d6

which averages out to 4.5 plus or minus two. Going by that, low damage at CR 1 should be 2.5, medium 4.5, and high 6.5. So that low damage expression is high at 5.5, but the other high and medium ones are pretty close. From these twelve monsters I'd go

Low 1d4
Med 1d6 + 1
High 1d6 + 3
 


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