Pathfinder 1E Paizo - Scourge of Old Worlds?

[Desdichado]

I missed if this was a joke or not. Joshua Dyal - Dragon is releasing a WotC catalogue in the magazine. It's to be done quarterly.

Sorry, I misread. I thought he meant a new setting.

 

[barsoomcore]

Some things can simply be understood to have a common definition.

Well, of course. I'm saying that "direct port" isn't one of them. We can disagree on that, I won't squawk. "Direct Port" anyway wasn't the term that got me started on this road -- it was Psion's statement that people doing conversions should "do it right."

I hope we can agree that "do it right" CANNOT be understood to have a common definition. I maintain that "direct port" is nearly as unhelpful, and I hope we agree that the best way to discuss a conversion is through discussion of specific changes rather than vague generalities.

I happen to think that statements like "Do a direct port!" are more like rallying cry to hopefully-like-minded crusaders than helpful statements on what ought to be done. People shy away from specific comments usually because it's too much work to actually think enough about something to come up with any. I submit that if you put a group of volunteers on a Planescape conversion project and make your mandate "Do a direct port!" you will encounter serious disagreements over some aspects of that conversion -- even if you all agree with the mandate. Hence, the mandate is unhelpful.

Or pedantry, maybe.

*looks at sky, whistles innocently*

Who, me?

 

[William Ronald]

My own opinion is that DMs will do as they wish, so I am not greatly concerned with the issue. I think you can run a good FR campaign using either the Great Wheel or current cosmology. As for the issue that wingsandsword raised with the GH deity Celestian helping out FR deity Waukeen in the time of troubles, one can still have deities and other beings traverse different cosmologies. This can be especially easy with some interconnecting transit planes (Plane of Shadow, Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane.)

I tend to agree with Alzrius in that many of the issues that the editorial addressed have been dealt with in other products. Considering that many campaign worlds assume a multiplicity of worlds, it is perhaps surprising that any given world gets a great deal of attention from extraplanar beings.

Also, some worlds may well have interconnecting planes and gates. Thus, it is possible for a party of adventurers in the City of Greyhawk to run afoul of the machinations of Orcus and a similar party in Waterdeep to be working to stop a similar plan by the same entity.

As for FR and the Egyptian gods, I recall that they are a form of avatar from their original deities. (See the FRCS. As I recall, they were allowed to manifest a form of themselves for the Realms.) Thus, although Ra may be dead in the Realms, he may be alive elsewhere as only his avatar was killed by Gruumsh. (When I first read this in FR canon, why did I suddenly envision ancient Egyptian mummies spinning around in their tombs? )

 

[William Ronald]

I think that having something on one of the old settings a few times a year might work well. The key thing to remember, which perhaps the articles can address, is Rule Zero. The DM decides what fits in a campaign. So, if you are running a Dark Sun campaign, you can decide whether paladins or sorcerers fit in to your version of the world. In the end, it is up to DMs and players to breathe life into a setting -- whether you use a published world or a homebrew.

 

[dead]

Isn't it?

Then, I'm having trouble reconciling the two sentiments 1) You can never understand unless you've supported a setting for many years and 2) We're not a bunch of petulant campaign-setting elitists.

Personally, I want to see new ideas. If I want the "soft" elements of a campaign setting, I don't need to have that updated. It's already available right there in the old 2e material. I want to see something new, otherwise it's wasting my time.

Most complaints about campaign-setting continuity are from long-time supporters of a campaign.

Someone without any interest in the campaign, or someone new to the campaign, will not particularly care.

 

[Alzrius]

As for FR and the Egyptian gods, I recall that they are a form of avatar from their original deities. (See the FRCS. As I recall, they were allowed to manifest a form of themselves for the Realms.) Thus, although Ra may be dead in the Realms, he may be alive elsewhere as only his avatar was killed by Gruumsh.

The way that worked (as explained back in, IIRC, Powers & Pantheons) was that, after the Imaskari wizards kidnapped the Rashemi and Mulan peoples from their world, they used incredible magics to stop their gods from manifesting in Realmspace.

Ordinarily, when there's a large concentration of worship of a deity in a new crystal sphere, that deity gets access to that crystal sphere...otherwise they are barred from doing anything there.

However, Ao was displeased by this, and so personally made an invitation to the two pantheons (IIRC, the Mulan worshipped the Babylonian pantheon, and the Rashemi worshipped the Egyptian pantheon) to send physical manifestations of themselves to physically cross the Phlogiston to Realmspace, which they did in a magical ship called the Bright Barge.

These god-kings ruled their respective peoples, though many of them were killed facing the avatars of the Orcish pantheon during the Orc-Gate Wars. Being divorced from their Outer Planar essences, this caused some changes in the deific power structure. It wasn't until the Time of Troubles ended that Ao removed the barrier the Imaskari had created, allowing the god-kings to reunite with their planar divine essence.

 

[Desdichado]

Most complaints about campaign-setting continuity are from long-time supporters of a campaign.

Someone without any interest in the campaign, or someone new to the campaign, will not particularly care.

Someone who is a long-time supporter of the campaign doesn't have anything to lose, though, because all of his old information that he has in print. The changes don't affect him unless he wants them to.

 

[William Ronald]

The way that worked (as explained back in, IIRC, Powers & Pantheons) was that, after the Imaskari wizards kidnapped the Rashemi and Mulan peoples from their world, they used incredible magics to stop their gods from manifesting in Realmspace.

Ordinarily, when there's a large concentration of worship of a deity in a new crystal sphere, that deity gets access to that crystal sphere...otherwise they are barred from doing anything there.

However, Ao was displeased by this, and so personally made an invitation to the two pantheons (IIRC, the Mulan worshipped the Babylonian pantheon, and the Rashemi worshipped the Egyptian pantheon) to send physical manifestations of themselves to physically cross the Phlogiston to Realmspace, which they did in a magical ship called the Bright Barge.

These god-kings ruled their respective peoples, though many of them were killed facing the avatars of the Orcish pantheon during the Orc-Gate Wars. Being divorced from their Outer Planar essences, this caused some changes in the deific power structure. It wasn't until the Time of Troubles ended that Ao removed the barrier the Imaskari had created, allowing the god-kings to reunite with their planar divine essence.

Thanks for the information, Alzrius!!

I think it should be fairly easy to connect any two settings via transitive planes or gates.

As for the continuity issues, I agree that having continuity helps but that some contradictions are bound to show up every now and then. Possibly one way to handle this is to have new facts come to light about an incident or present what was an "official" view as one of several. (Depending on whose history books you read, you might find very different interpreptations of the same events -- or even questions about whether something happened as accepted by prevailing opinion.) The key question about new material for a setting is whether it works for you? If so, use it. If not, ignore it.

 

[dead]

Someone who is a long-time supporter of the campaign doesn't have anything to lose, though, because all of his old information that he has in print. The changes don't affect him unless he wants them to.

If you tell someone to "stop whining and just use their out-of-print books" then they are isolating themselves from the gaming community. The majority of the community will be playing the updated 3E version.

I completely understand the complaints I hear from long-time supporters of a campaign. They're the fans and they have a right to voice their opinion.

For example, I never bought the Birthright setting and thus don't care if WotC re-released it with glaring continuity gaps. But I do know that when the inevitable hew and cry goes up from long-time Birthright supporters, I would not bash them for their "whining" or tell them to "pike-off back to their 2E editions". In fact, I wouldn't make any comment because I'm in no position to understand *exactly* what a long-time Birthright supporter is feeling. Their complaints are not against the 3E core rules so they can merrily howl with as much grief as they want.