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Paizo's 'The Abomination Vaults' Pathinder AP Coming to 5E
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<blockquote data-quote="Retreater" data-source="post: 8590961" data-attributes="member: 42040"><p>[SPOILER='My definition of "end"']If you're in the stairs getting ready to face the Void Critter and needing to leave the dungeon to get the items to take down the magical barrier to get to the next level down, I think that's a good end for the first episode.[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and that "kill first, ask questions later" approach is rewarded by the system mechanics. If you're coming out of exploration mode with your fighters ready for battle with shields raised, your rogue already hidden and ready to sneak attack flat-footed opponents, etc., then stopping to chat with the monsters is going to hamstring you during the battle. And with the "tight balance" of PF2, the encounter math assumes you don't waste actions, so you MUST strike when you're ready. The drawback is that the paragraphs of background and motivation for NPCs that the GM has is essentially wasted space that can't be conveyed to the party.</p><p></p><p>I agree to that, being one of the strengths of the design.</p><p></p><p>The scale of the rooms, hallways, and distance between them is so tiny it's ludicrous. You can run the entire dungeon in "Encounter mode." Fights are usually a single Stride action apart. There is almost no point in going into Exploration mode. </p><p>The size of the default Paizo map design should be doubled for PF2. You can't fit a party and a suitable number of enemies in a single room. You don't have enemies outside of range of the caster, so they never have to move, and if your caster is always in the hallway behind the fighter who is blocking the only 5 ft entrance into the room, there's never a danger posed to the back rank. There is no room for any creative movement, tactics like using reach or ranged weapons. </p><p>Maybe they should put in a series of 5x5 monster closets - they could fit in more encounters that way.</p><p></p><p>You don't know until you open the door, though. Like, if you know that flesh-eating ghouls are on the other side of the door, describe some blood smear on the door, a stray finger on the ground, the smell of blood in the air, the crunching of bone heard on the other side. Without connecting the room encounters to the doors and hallways, it gives the feel of having distinct "monster hotels" and few links between the encounter areas. This is stuff that can (and should) be added by the GM, but having some clues in there for the GM to describe to the players would be helpful.</p><p></p><p>The contrived part of it is that each monster dwells in its "monster hotel." The encounters and occupants do not connect at all. They are all trapped in stasis waiting for the characters to arrive. It's not a living environment. They do not interact to what the characters do. Even if the party leaves and returns, do they restock the dungeon? Are they on alarm? Do they retreat to another area? Do they make any preparations? Is there a time-limit where if the party returns to town after every fight that things might get worse? The answer is "no" to all of these questions.</p><p></p><p>For that style of play, I have HeroQuest. Beer and pretzels sessions have their place, but it's odd to see this one held up as the crown jewel of PF2. The idea is fun, but do you want to do this for 10 levels? Maybe 6 months to a year of play? </p><p>I think that had Abomination Vaults been presented as a "big dungeon adventure" and not as a self-contained Adventure Path campaign, maybe I wouldn't hold it to such scrutiny. As a big dungeon that you can go in, kill stuff, get treasure, etc., it's not bad. As the focal point of an entire campaign it is samey, tedious, and unrewarding.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Retreater, post: 8590961, member: 42040"] [SPOILER='My definition of "end"']If you're in the stairs getting ready to face the Void Critter and needing to leave the dungeon to get the items to take down the magical barrier to get to the next level down, I think that's a good end for the first episode.[/SPOILER] Yes, and that "kill first, ask questions later" approach is rewarded by the system mechanics. If you're coming out of exploration mode with your fighters ready for battle with shields raised, your rogue already hidden and ready to sneak attack flat-footed opponents, etc., then stopping to chat with the monsters is going to hamstring you during the battle. And with the "tight balance" of PF2, the encounter math assumes you don't waste actions, so you MUST strike when you're ready. The drawback is that the paragraphs of background and motivation for NPCs that the GM has is essentially wasted space that can't be conveyed to the party. I agree to that, being one of the strengths of the design. The scale of the rooms, hallways, and distance between them is so tiny it's ludicrous. You can run the entire dungeon in "Encounter mode." Fights are usually a single Stride action apart. There is almost no point in going into Exploration mode. The size of the default Paizo map design should be doubled for PF2. You can't fit a party and a suitable number of enemies in a single room. You don't have enemies outside of range of the caster, so they never have to move, and if your caster is always in the hallway behind the fighter who is blocking the only 5 ft entrance into the room, there's never a danger posed to the back rank. There is no room for any creative movement, tactics like using reach or ranged weapons. Maybe they should put in a series of 5x5 monster closets - they could fit in more encounters that way. You don't know until you open the door, though. Like, if you know that flesh-eating ghouls are on the other side of the door, describe some blood smear on the door, a stray finger on the ground, the smell of blood in the air, the crunching of bone heard on the other side. Without connecting the room encounters to the doors and hallways, it gives the feel of having distinct "monster hotels" and few links between the encounter areas. This is stuff that can (and should) be added by the GM, but having some clues in there for the GM to describe to the players would be helpful. The contrived part of it is that each monster dwells in its "monster hotel." The encounters and occupants do not connect at all. They are all trapped in stasis waiting for the characters to arrive. It's not a living environment. They do not interact to what the characters do. Even if the party leaves and returns, do they restock the dungeon? Are they on alarm? Do they retreat to another area? Do they make any preparations? Is there a time-limit where if the party returns to town after every fight that things might get worse? The answer is "no" to all of these questions. For that style of play, I have HeroQuest. Beer and pretzels sessions have their place, but it's odd to see this one held up as the crown jewel of PF2. The idea is fun, but do you want to do this for 10 levels? Maybe 6 months to a year of play? I think that had Abomination Vaults been presented as a "big dungeon adventure" and not as a self-contained Adventure Path campaign, maybe I wouldn't hold it to such scrutiny. As a big dungeon that you can go in, kill stuff, get treasure, etc., it's not bad. As the focal point of an entire campaign it is samey, tedious, and unrewarding. [/QUOTE]
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