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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7814188" data-attributes="member: 4937">You are conflating two very different things.First, we are having a discussion of how a Paladin should behave in these circumstances and whether what this Paladin did was moral. That discussion is independent of what any of us think of the skills of the DM in this situation and whether it was good DMing to put the Paladin in that situation. This part of the discussion is an in game universe discussion.Secondly, while we could have a discussion of the skill of the DM in this situation, it would be a conversation based on insufficient data and perhaps even more importantly, based around an argument from the counter-factual. That part of the discussion, which perhaps is its own thread, would be a discussion about the metagame.As for that discussion, the truth is we have absolutely no idea what might have happened had the Paladin done something else. The DM could have been planning to have the dragon flee, or reinforcements to arrive unexpectedly, or some sort of divine intervention, or to have the PC be raised from the dead by an ally/mentor character that shows up. Or heck, the Paladin could rolled 5 20's to the dragon's 5 1's.  The DM could have had a narrativist perspective where you challenge character beliefs, and then you play to the cue that they give you from that challenge and that is good DMing. We don't know. All of that could be potentially good scenes, and in any event, you aren't guaranteed to win. Martyrdom is a possibility that is always out there when you play a Paladin, and we really don't know what (if any) mistakes were made by players that put them in this pinch.In short, we should proceed from a principle of charity before we start making claims that the DM needs to have their life choked out of them by your bare avenging hands.</blockquote>

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