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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7814551" data-attributes="member: 4937">You know, as flattering as it is for you to repeatedly quote back to me a phrase that I invented and popularized decades ago (though, for all I know it was independently discovered without me as it's just common sense), this sort of repetition is a bit redundant, and I suggest perhaps you don't understand the phrase.Sorry you feel that way. That is far as I'm concerned one of the most central aspects of play, and it is essential to my fun if no one else's. I'm under no obligation to give any player the result that they expect. I have suggested talking with the player about where they want to take the character from here, and would happily facilitate that. But if you think you are going to come to my table and tell me that you need a take back or do over for whatever the heck reason other than an actual rules error or oversight, and you throw a temper tantrum about it, you will be that first player I have to send packing.What's next? Retconning that they set off the trap because their player died, despite the fact everyone else in the party was screaming at them not to push the big red button? (Famous last words: "I had no idea that would be that bad." My reply, "It did say that you shouldn't mess with it unless you had magical protections on the scale that would protect against a potentially continent destroying event." Sorry, off on a tangent.) Learn to live with your choices. If you can't have fun with your failures, you probably should find a different game. Monty Haul is running a different table. You would think from your discussion that I've had players take a walk all the time, and the problem I have isn't the reverse that I have to turn down players.It's almost like you've been reading me for years at EnWorld! I'm flattered. And while I obviously agree, in my judgment a uniform standard with strong expectations is more conducive to player happiness in the long run than doing take backs on what is actually a very strong story telling moment, and that in the long run the player is going to have a much better story to tell if as a result of a pivotal character building scene like this is that something real and meaningful happens - even if it isn't entirely and immediately positive and even if it wasn't what the player expected when they scoped out a level 1 to 20 'career' for their character that consisted only of mechanical elements and a vague notion of self-validation. If the player can't maturely accept that decisions have real consequences, then we are so polls apart in our aesthetics of play that I don't know what to tell them. I'd probably try to find out what actual aesthetic of play they wanted me to support, and then try to give them some suggestions on how to obtain that aesthetic through functional rather than dysfunctional play. Though, for the sake of diplomacy, I probably wouldn't actually use the word 'dysfunctional' to describe the temper tantrum you seem to be advocating that they throw.One thing I can say about communication and expectations in my game is I can't imagine anyone player who offered to play a Paladin at my table not knowing that I expected high standards and thoughtful behavior and that their patron would hold them accountable. In my gameworld, 'Paladins' are considered to be living embodiments of the deity - the very chosen representative of the deity on the world. For the 'Paladin' to behave in a less than ideal manner is to directly insult the deity, bring the deity to shame, demonstrate to the public that the deity exercised poor judgment in selecting his chosen representative, and essentially make the deity a laughing stock.  Death before dishonor (whatever the deity defines as dishonor which of course varies widely) is the obvious standard. I mean, what is death anyway in a universe with a knowable afterlife? There certainly would be no mismatch of expectations in my game world. This would be Session 0 stuff.</blockquote>

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