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General Tabletop Discussion
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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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<blockquote data-quote="DammitVictor" data-source="post: 7814977" data-attributes="member: 6750908"><p>I really love how people keep pulling out the <em>Kobayashi Maru</em> to justify why putting players and PCs into impossible situations is good gaming.</p><p></p><p>1) The <em>Star Trek</em> writers had full awareness and control of the scenario</p><p>2) The people "playing" Cadet Kirk were the same people who had full control and awareness of the scenario</p><p>3) At no point were either the audience <em>or the writers</em> ever required to come up with an actual solution</p><p>4) The <em>Kobayashi Maru</em> was explicitly a simulation; Cadet Kirk's solution would not have worked in "real life"</p><p></p><p>It's a colorful story, a wonderful moment of characterization for an even more colorful character <em>in his backstory</em>, but it only works in fiction for the same reasons it doesn't work in a multiplayer game, and the <em>whole point of the exercise</em> is to teach young, heroic Starfleet officers the exact opposite of the moral lesson Kirk took from it.</p><p></p><p>Those kinds of scenarios <em>in gaming</em> only work in systems where players have the kind of narrative control to <em>invent their own</em> "third options"; in a game like D&D, player characters only have the options that the DM either gives to them, or fails to account for, and it is <em>ridiculously unfair</em> and <em>unfun</em> for DMs to expect players to <em>outwit them</em> in an environment in which they have perfect control and players have imperfect awareness.</p><p></p><p>Also... basing any kind of real-world moral reasoning-- including imposing moral standards on other peoples' fictional characters-- on Mary Sue's First Noodle Incident is both ridiculous and terrifying.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DammitVictor, post: 7814977, member: 6750908"] I really love how people keep pulling out the [i]Kobayashi Maru[/i] to justify why putting players and PCs into impossible situations is good gaming. 1) The [i]Star Trek[/i] writers had full awareness and control of the scenario 2) The people "playing" Cadet Kirk were the same people who had full control and awareness of the scenario 3) At no point were either the audience [i]or the writers[/i] ever required to come up with an actual solution 4) The [i]Kobayashi Maru[/i] was explicitly a simulation; Cadet Kirk's solution would not have worked in "real life" It's a colorful story, a wonderful moment of characterization for an even more colorful character [i]in his backstory[/i], but it only works in fiction for the same reasons it doesn't work in a multiplayer game, and the [i]whole point of the exercise[/i] is to teach young, heroic Starfleet officers the exact opposite of the moral lesson Kirk took from it. Those kinds of scenarios [i]in gaming[/i] only work in systems where players have the kind of narrative control to [i]invent their own[/i] "third options"; in a game like D&D, player characters only have the options that the DM either gives to them, or fails to account for, and it is [i]ridiculously unfair[/i] and [i]unfun[/i] for DMs to expect players to [i]outwit them[/i] in an environment in which they have perfect control and players have imperfect awareness. Also... basing any kind of real-world moral reasoning-- including imposing moral standards on other peoples' fictional characters-- on Mary Sue's First Noodle Incident is both ridiculous and terrifying. [/QUOTE]
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