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*Dungeons & Dragons
Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7815791" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I also don't think it's skill. I think it's how the DM has trained their table -- it has nothing to do with newness or oldness to the hobby, if the DM has never let talking be useful, or never hints that talking is a viable solution to avoid combat, then the DM has trained their table to expect fighting with the sole purpose of removing hitpoints until dead. This is actually pretty common, and it's a common DM mistake to suddenly shift gears in prep and not make that as obvious as a bat to the face for the players and then become disappointed that the players didn't guess how this time it was different.</p><p></p><p>Use your cluebats, DMs! At least until you've fixed your training mistakes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Does it? If you think you have the cure for cancer, but it still needs trials, is it more okay to not report it as soon as possible to save as many lives as possible because you're not 100% and it'll still take some time? Morality doesn't really care about immediacy. If I save this person today at the cost of 1,000s tomorrow, that fact that it's a day later doesn't change the calculus. Certainty adds a wrinkle, certainly, but we're talking about either suicide and failing to save anyone or sacrificing one for the chance to save everyone down the line. You said you have a solution to the trolley problem -- what if it's don't switch and you kill 1 to maybe save 5 OR switch and you still kill the one guy, but also now yourself, and you reduce the chance those 5 can be saved? The calculus here is 1 dead maybe 6 saved or 2 dead, less chance of 5 saved. Immediacy and uncertainty play a role, but I don't think it's enough to clearly answer the question.</p><p></p><p>This is why I absolutely say this is up to the player. If they think this is a bad thing for their character, they should act to take steps to fix it -- atone, do penance, whatever. If they don't, that's on them, isn't it? They're no longer playing the character they though they were. I certainly support the DM asking the player about it. "Hey, Joe, Bob gave that guy up to the dragon. How does Bob feel about that with regards to their oaths?" </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, this is kind of frustrating for me because there's not a terribly non-confrontational way to say this. Here goes: if you cannot play a paladin adhering to an oath without having a DM to hold you to it, I question whether or not you're actually trying to play a paladin-archetype character (which is fine, but lets call the spade a shovel). To me, I know my character, and if I'm going to have an important point to my roleplay of that character, I don't need someone else to police it for me. If I play a paladin, then I'm the one that has to feel the oath, it's strictures, and it's import. Having a DM define it according to how the DM thinks it should be robs me of that immersion and also crosses the line of the DM roleplaying my character for me.</p><p></p><p>Further to the absolute point, if I don't follow my oath, the DM still has a huge array of tools to level consequence that aren't telling me how my character feels or changing my character sheet. I'd have no problem with the actions of the PCs getting around and people treating them according to the choices they've made. Bob the Faithless or Bob the Coward or Bob the Blasphemer are all things I'd level as a DM, but I'll never tell a player how their character feels nor change anything on the character sheet. If I think that the player is abusing the game, that's not an in-character thing -- we need to have an OOC chat about play and what everyone at the table wants.</p><p></p><p>I see zero value in allowing the DM to define my character for me in any way. And, if you feel that considering your own character's moral situation pulls you out of the fictional world, it's possible we don't have enough common ground to discuss this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7815791, member: 16814"] I also don't think it's skill. I think it's how the DM has trained their table -- it has nothing to do with newness or oldness to the hobby, if the DM has never let talking be useful, or never hints that talking is a viable solution to avoid combat, then the DM has trained their table to expect fighting with the sole purpose of removing hitpoints until dead. This is actually pretty common, and it's a common DM mistake to suddenly shift gears in prep and not make that as obvious as a bat to the face for the players and then become disappointed that the players didn't guess how this time it was different. Use your cluebats, DMs! At least until you've fixed your training mistakes. Does it? If you think you have the cure for cancer, but it still needs trials, is it more okay to not report it as soon as possible to save as many lives as possible because you're not 100% and it'll still take some time? Morality doesn't really care about immediacy. If I save this person today at the cost of 1,000s tomorrow, that fact that it's a day later doesn't change the calculus. Certainty adds a wrinkle, certainly, but we're talking about either suicide and failing to save anyone or sacrificing one for the chance to save everyone down the line. You said you have a solution to the trolley problem -- what if it's don't switch and you kill 1 to maybe save 5 OR switch and you still kill the one guy, but also now yourself, and you reduce the chance those 5 can be saved? The calculus here is 1 dead maybe 6 saved or 2 dead, less chance of 5 saved. Immediacy and uncertainty play a role, but I don't think it's enough to clearly answer the question. This is why I absolutely say this is up to the player. If they think this is a bad thing for their character, they should act to take steps to fix it -- atone, do penance, whatever. If they don't, that's on them, isn't it? They're no longer playing the character they though they were. I certainly support the DM asking the player about it. "Hey, Joe, Bob gave that guy up to the dragon. How does Bob feel about that with regards to their oaths?" Okay, this is kind of frustrating for me because there's not a terribly non-confrontational way to say this. Here goes: if you cannot play a paladin adhering to an oath without having a DM to hold you to it, I question whether or not you're actually trying to play a paladin-archetype character (which is fine, but lets call the spade a shovel). To me, I know my character, and if I'm going to have an important point to my roleplay of that character, I don't need someone else to police it for me. If I play a paladin, then I'm the one that has to feel the oath, it's strictures, and it's import. Having a DM define it according to how the DM thinks it should be robs me of that immersion and also crosses the line of the DM roleplaying my character for me. Further to the absolute point, if I don't follow my oath, the DM still has a huge array of tools to level consequence that aren't telling me how my character feels or changing my character sheet. I'd have no problem with the actions of the PCs getting around and people treating them according to the choices they've made. Bob the Faithless or Bob the Coward or Bob the Blasphemer are all things I'd level as a DM, but I'll never tell a player how their character feels nor change anything on the character sheet. If I think that the player is abusing the game, that's not an in-character thing -- we need to have an OOC chat about play and what everyone at the table wants. I see zero value in allowing the DM to define my character for me in any way. And, if you feel that considering your own character's moral situation pulls you out of the fictional world, it's possible we don't have enough common ground to discuss this. [/QUOTE]
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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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