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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7815921" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Maybe in intro to philosophy courses, but the application of ethics deals, in large part, with decision making under uncertainty, often deep uncertainty. You can't handwave it away because it's hard -- that's the point. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting. In this case, though, it doesn't matter what's chosen, the NPC dies. That's a starting place -- this NPC dies, there is no choice that changes that. So, given that, and your preference for simple, isn't this a choice about whether the paladin commits suicide or not? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You said this: "To be clear, I am talking about what someone(s) said early about having the player decide if the oath was broken, that sort of thing. Not my job as a player and it just sucks the life out of the fictional world if the GM is making me determine consequences for my PC." I'm responding to it. If it isn't your job to determine if you've broken your oath, then you're asking the DM to do all the things I say above -- I don't see how you can avoid having the DM determine how your character feels because that's a large part of most of the oaths -- mens rea or a guilty mind. It's certainly a part of the severity of punishment. </p><p></p><p>So, if the DM not the player determines if your oath is broken, otherwise it pulls you out of the game, then:</p><p></p><p>There is no ability in your game for a player to hold themselves to an oath without the DM holding them to it.</p><p></p><p>The DM must establish how the PC feels about a potential violation to determine if the violation happens and what severity of punishment follows. Since it's the DM's job to determine if an oath is broken, then they have the ability to determine how your character feels. Otherwise, the DM is asking the player if they think they've broken their oath before applying punishment and that's not what you said.</p><p></p><p>And, as for your consideration of your character's morality being divorced from whether your character violates a morality clause in a magical oath (like all of the paladin oaths that have vague morality clauses), you cannot separate these things. Otherwise your, again, asking the DM to determine what your character actually thinks to determine if a morality clause is broken.</p><p></p><p>Look at your answer to the trolley problem. You focus on the choice made and why that choice was made. Unless that information is available outside of you, no one else can determine if your choice violates your moral understanding. That's the terrible beauty of the trolley problem -- you might strongly feel one way about it, but from the outside it's still a horrible tragedy as you could have saved those 5 people by pulling the lever and switching tracks. The internal thinking is what makes that a solution to you, not the objective actions judged by another's moral framework. And, if you're handing off the consideration of your oath to the DM to be judged according to what the DM thinks rather than your character, then you're giving up all of the things I post above whether you'd normally find doing so distasteful or not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7815921, member: 16814"] Maybe in intro to philosophy courses, but the application of ethics deals, in large part, with decision making under uncertainty, often deep uncertainty. You can't handwave it away because it's hard -- that's the point. Interesting. In this case, though, it doesn't matter what's chosen, the NPC dies. That's a starting place -- this NPC dies, there is no choice that changes that. So, given that, and your preference for simple, isn't this a choice about whether the paladin commits suicide or not? You said this: "To be clear, I am talking about what someone(s) said early about having the player decide if the oath was broken, that sort of thing. Not my job as a player and it just sucks the life out of the fictional world if the GM is making me determine consequences for my PC." I'm responding to it. If it isn't your job to determine if you've broken your oath, then you're asking the DM to do all the things I say above -- I don't see how you can avoid having the DM determine how your character feels because that's a large part of most of the oaths -- mens rea or a guilty mind. It's certainly a part of the severity of punishment. So, if the DM not the player determines if your oath is broken, otherwise it pulls you out of the game, then: There is no ability in your game for a player to hold themselves to an oath without the DM holding them to it. The DM must establish how the PC feels about a potential violation to determine if the violation happens and what severity of punishment follows. Since it's the DM's job to determine if an oath is broken, then they have the ability to determine how your character feels. Otherwise, the DM is asking the player if they think they've broken their oath before applying punishment and that's not what you said. And, as for your consideration of your character's morality being divorced from whether your character violates a morality clause in a magical oath (like all of the paladin oaths that have vague morality clauses), you cannot separate these things. Otherwise your, again, asking the DM to determine what your character actually thinks to determine if a morality clause is broken. Look at your answer to the trolley problem. You focus on the choice made and why that choice was made. Unless that information is available outside of you, no one else can determine if your choice violates your moral understanding. That's the terrible beauty of the trolley problem -- you might strongly feel one way about it, but from the outside it's still a horrible tragedy as you could have saved those 5 people by pulling the lever and switching tracks. The internal thinking is what makes that a solution to you, not the objective actions judged by another's moral framework. And, if you're handing off the consideration of your oath to the DM to be judged according to what the DM thinks rather than your character, then you're giving up all of the things I post above whether you'd normally find doing so distasteful or not. [/QUOTE]
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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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