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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7816115" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>No, we're told that the DM intended other options, but that's different from what was apparent to the player. It would be like providing the trolley problem but not telling anyone there's a third option available where they can pick a third track with no one on it. You cannot hold someone accountable for not guessing a hidden option is available. The offer from a very powerful dragon that the paladin has no hope to defeat was leave and live or stay and die -- either way the NPC is eaten. Holding the player responsible for failing to guess that, this time, the powerful and lethal dragon could be stared down is not a valid position.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You've missed my point. For the DM to apply penalties for breaking the oath, the DM must determine if the paladin did it willingly or not. To do this, the DM must determine what the paladin is thinking and feeling. Only then can they apply the punishment. That you feel that you can maintain a different set of feelings and thinkings for the character is nice, but it's not true -- you've ceded part of this to the DM, and since their word determines reality in game, whatever you're doing is pretending inside pretending.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You, very clearly, said that a player doing so without the DM enforcing it would be something you do not like in a game. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's unpack this, because I think this gets to the heart of the disagreement. What the above says to me is that the player is intentionally acting in bad faith at the table and the DM should punish their character for it. This is backwards. Either you play with people that you expect will do their best or you do not. If the latter, then the problems aren't going to be solved in game. If the former, then this isn't going to happen at all, and, if it does, it warrants a table discussion rather than the DM choosing things for the character to pay.</p><p></p><p>If a player at my table wants to play a paladin, then I, as DM, need to trust that they're going to do that. If they break that trust, it's a table issue, not a paladin one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As the DM can feel you've dishonored something when you haven't. Substituting the DM's judgement for your own doesn't improve the decision making capabilities. Either you're playing in good faith with the table or you aren't. If you are, then how you think your character is doing is good enough. If you aren't, the DM doing it for you isn't going to save anything.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. I think it's important what the <em>player </em>thinks the oath is. The character doesn't think. It's not real. The player is role-playing as if the paladin is real, but that means it's the player's choices animating the fiction. And, I have plenty of faith that players are more than capable of playing paladins according to their oaths in ways that are fufilling and make for a fun game. They don't need the DM riding herd on their choices to make sure that the DM's vision of the world comes true. The DM has infinite dragons for that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7816115, member: 16814"] No, we're told that the DM intended other options, but that's different from what was apparent to the player. It would be like providing the trolley problem but not telling anyone there's a third option available where they can pick a third track with no one on it. You cannot hold someone accountable for not guessing a hidden option is available. The offer from a very powerful dragon that the paladin has no hope to defeat was leave and live or stay and die -- either way the NPC is eaten. Holding the player responsible for failing to guess that, this time, the powerful and lethal dragon could be stared down is not a valid position. You've missed my point. For the DM to apply penalties for breaking the oath, the DM must determine if the paladin did it willingly or not. To do this, the DM must determine what the paladin is thinking and feeling. Only then can they apply the punishment. That you feel that you can maintain a different set of feelings and thinkings for the character is nice, but it's not true -- you've ceded part of this to the DM, and since their word determines reality in game, whatever you're doing is pretending inside pretending. You, very clearly, said that a player doing so without the DM enforcing it would be something you do not like in a game. Let's unpack this, because I think this gets to the heart of the disagreement. What the above says to me is that the player is intentionally acting in bad faith at the table and the DM should punish their character for it. This is backwards. Either you play with people that you expect will do their best or you do not. If the latter, then the problems aren't going to be solved in game. If the former, then this isn't going to happen at all, and, if it does, it warrants a table discussion rather than the DM choosing things for the character to pay. If a player at my table wants to play a paladin, then I, as DM, need to trust that they're going to do that. If they break that trust, it's a table issue, not a paladin one. As the DM can feel you've dishonored something when you haven't. Substituting the DM's judgement for your own doesn't improve the decision making capabilities. Either you're playing in good faith with the table or you aren't. If you are, then how you think your character is doing is good enough. If you aren't, the DM doing it for you isn't going to save anything. No. I think it's important what the [I]player [/I]thinks the oath is. The character doesn't think. It's not real. The player is role-playing as if the paladin is real, but that means it's the player's choices animating the fiction. And, I have plenty of faith that players are more than capable of playing paladins according to their oaths in ways that are fufilling and make for a fun game. They don't need the DM riding herd on their choices to make sure that the DM's vision of the world comes true. The DM has infinite dragons for that. [/QUOTE]
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Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?
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