Paladin/Monk

[irdeggman]

...and is commonly enough house-ruled that talking about both options is justified.

-Stuart

But it is hard to do so from a rules based point of view.

In a "what I do in my game" or something else like that it is totally appropriate.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Also from DC v1 (I believe) is Serenity. All those cha-based paladin class features? Yeah, they're now based on wisdom, which...oh right...monk also uses alot.

 

[Quartz]

How do you conceive the character progressing? Are you going to major in Monk or in Paladin? Pal 4 / Mk 16 with a 'Practiced Monk' feat could be quite nasty. And if you need a weapon, you use your walking staff.

 

[eamon]

But it is hard to do so from a rules based point of view.

In a "what I do in my game" or something else like that it is totally appropriate.

Sure, though choosing Vow of Poverty from a "rules" point of view is contrary to the way it's described. And in any case, unrelated to vow of poverty, I've seen PC's that use their walking sticks as Holy Symbols. Sure, the rules suggest that a cleric uses a standard wooden or silver symbol, but being flexible in this manner is pretty common in D&D - in fact the Description chapter of the PHB even suggests this kind of thing, and the DMG is full of such possibilities.

Note that this sort of change is different from many rule mechanical questions in that it only specifically applies to your character. If you rule that archers within 30ft can also contribute to flanking bonuses, then you're affecting many many people within the fictional world. That means that the argument for a rules-based approach is far stronger in the general case than it is in the Personalization case.

It just strikes me that if people are including weird twists and turns in their character to satisfy rules requirements and not out of character building, then probably you should reconsider those rules (in a power-neutral fashion).

Even with spellcasting, a VoP cleric won't overshadow a VoP druid, owing to the animal companion and wildshape features - i.e. I'm not too worried about the cleric's holy symbol, and would rule whichever way made more sense thematically, as opposed to the strict rules interpretation.

 

[Darklone]

Remember: Divine Might + many monk attacks = interesting.

 

[Klaus]

A VoP cleric could have a holy symbol tattooed to their bodies, no?

 

[irdeggman]

It just strikes me that if people are including weird twists and turns in their character to satisfy rules requirements and not out of character building, then probably you should reconsider those rules (in a power-neutral fashion).

And those people (and games) should - since they have already gone into "deviations" from the rules as written.

 

[Aelf]

I want to agree that Holy Symbols are prohibited by VoP.

However, the Apostle of Peace PrC in BoED requires VoP and has a custom divine spell list that includes spells requiring a DF.

To me, this suggests
a) bad editing / integration of multiple game designers
b) simple oversight

(I intentionally leave out the Sage Advice/Rules of the Game mentions)

 

[irdeggman]

I want to agree that Holy Symbols are prohibited by VoP.

However, the Apostle of Peace PrC in BoED requires VoP and has a custom divine spell list that includes spells requiring a DF.

To me, this suggests
a) bad editing / integration of multiple game designers
b) simple oversight

(I intentionally leave out the Sage Advice/Rules of the Game mentions)

Right - I look at the Apostle of Peace having an editorial by including Vow of Poverty as a prereq - especially since it doesn't really seem to be an essential part of the prestige class.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Seriously, eliminating cleric and paladin spellcasting entirely with VoP is rather silly.

Agreed, 100%.

As I pointed out in another (lengthy) thread, VoP RAW is violative of its own internal logic.

Dannyalcatraz

...a VoP PC actually loses powers and abilities normally attributed to saints. Saintly beings could do things like detect evil (they would know if someone was posessed, or were sent by evil persons) and create barriers against it, cast out demons, and alleviate the sorrows of supplicants. VoP PCs cannot do ANY of that- they cannot cast Detect Evil (or Undead), Protection from Evil or Magic Circle against Evil. They cannot help "sinners" cleanse themselves with Atonement. They cannot Bless or use Prayer to aid their allies.

Instead of becoming the best living evidence of a deity's power by acting as his agent on earth, he is weakened. (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=155084&page=3&pp=30 post #78)

I posted other examples within the thread.

In that same thread, I pointed out that a VoP Druid, for instance, would be limited to casting only 11 spells from the PHB because only those have material foci that are not divine foci (post #111).

For a complete alphabetical list of Cleric/Paladin PHB spells not requiring divine foci, see post #52 in http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=155084&page=2&pp=30