[Paladin mount questions] But the Lone Ranger never killed off Silver...
- Thread starter Lord Pendragon
- Start date
Well I finally sat down and did a formal analysis of the three main choices. Celestial Heavy Warhorse (CHWH), Dire Wolf and a Griffon.
The advancement is
* Griffon advances to Huge at 11 HD gaining +8 Str, +4 Con
The Dire Lion is not worth it as it effectively is the same as the Dire Wolf only with a different set of special attacks.
Since the other stats are advanced at the same rate, there's no advantage to charting them. The horse is the weakest of the 3 at 18 str, the dire wolf has a 25 and the griffon starts out at 18, but gets bumped up to 26 at 11HD.
The griffon also has the best AC of the three. CHWH and DW are 14. the Griffon has a base 17 rising to 19 at 11HD. Gaining a total of +2 Natural armor from the Size increase. However the Griffon's ability to wear armor is compromised by it's limitation to a light load. though at a light load of 918 lb. (after Size increase), it might not be that bad especially considering that it already has 5 points of ac on the others.
The CHWH is clearly the worst of the three it's only advanages being the elemental resistances and DR gained through the template (Smite is more than cancelled out by the Str differential). Furthermore, since most elemental attacks are area effect spells of one sort or another, that advantage is minimized due to the improved evasion feat gained by all mounts (1/2 dam or none). A collar of resistance (MotW) is only 12,250 gold for a +5 to all saves. Between that and the save bonuses and spell sharing, the mount should be pretty much immune to area effect attacks.
The DR is gained at sufficient levels that it probably will not be effective vs the creatures that will be encountered.
If you want something early on, the dire wolf, is clearly the best choice. It's nearly as tough as the griffon and is superior up until the griffon hits the size increase to huge. It's automatic trip attack should not be underestimated as well.
If you can keep the griffon alive (shouldn't be that difficult) until it hits 11HD, it becomes hands down the best of the three.
One possible suggestion that could be very interesting would be a Bulette possibly with either a half celestial or Axiomatic template (MotP). They are extremely tough with high HP (94), Ac 22 and great attacks. While one would defintely not be a standard, mount (due to their relentless hunger and agression). The half-celestial or axiomatic (lawful) template should provice sufficent justification for overcoming that (not to mention making it even tougher). The one drawback is that it would probably not be takeable until probably 11th (CR7) or plus what ever the template adds. In any case the burrowing abilty adds a whole host of interesting posibilities and should keep it out of danger in most situations should that be necessary.
The advancement is
Code:
Pal Lv CHWH DW Pal Lv Griffon
lv 6 6HD+18 8HD+24 N/A
lv 9 8HD+24 10HD+30 lv 8 9HD+27
lv 12 10HD+30 12HD+36 lv 11 11HD+55*
lv 16 12HD+36 14HD+42 lv 14 13HD+65
+ 12HD+36 14HD+42 lv 18 15HD+75* Griffon advances to Huge at 11 HD gaining +8 Str, +4 Con
The Dire Lion is not worth it as it effectively is the same as the Dire Wolf only with a different set of special attacks.
Since the other stats are advanced at the same rate, there's no advantage to charting them. The horse is the weakest of the 3 at 18 str, the dire wolf has a 25 and the griffon starts out at 18, but gets bumped up to 26 at 11HD.
The griffon also has the best AC of the three. CHWH and DW are 14. the Griffon has a base 17 rising to 19 at 11HD. Gaining a total of +2 Natural armor from the Size increase. However the Griffon's ability to wear armor is compromised by it's limitation to a light load. though at a light load of 918 lb. (after Size increase), it might not be that bad especially considering that it already has 5 points of ac on the others.
The CHWH is clearly the worst of the three it's only advanages being the elemental resistances and DR gained through the template (Smite is more than cancelled out by the Str differential). Furthermore, since most elemental attacks are area effect spells of one sort or another, that advantage is minimized due to the improved evasion feat gained by all mounts (1/2 dam or none). A collar of resistance (MotW) is only 12,250 gold for a +5 to all saves. Between that and the save bonuses and spell sharing, the mount should be pretty much immune to area effect attacks.
The DR is gained at sufficient levels that it probably will not be effective vs the creatures that will be encountered.
If you want something early on, the dire wolf, is clearly the best choice. It's nearly as tough as the griffon and is superior up until the griffon hits the size increase to huge. It's automatic trip attack should not be underestimated as well.
If you can keep the griffon alive (shouldn't be that difficult) until it hits 11HD, it becomes hands down the best of the three.
One possible suggestion that could be very interesting would be a Bulette possibly with either a half celestial or Axiomatic template (MotP). They are extremely tough with high HP (94), Ac 22 and great attacks. While one would defintely not be a standard, mount (due to their relentless hunger and agression). The half-celestial or axiomatic (lawful) template should provice sufficent justification for overcoming that (not to mention making it even tougher). The one drawback is that it would probably not be takeable until probably 11th (CR7) or plus what ever the template adds. In any case the burrowing abilty adds a whole host of interesting posibilities and should keep it out of danger in most situations should that be necessary.
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Actually, I wouldn't (as a GM) allow the advancement of the Griffon to work QUITE the way you have it.
I'd treat the HD gained from being a Paladin's special mount as BONUS HD, not as ADVANCEMENT HD.
After all, a Paladin's mount isn't immune to getting hold ... what happens when it retires, it suddenly gets smaller again?
I'd treat the HD gained from being a Paladin's special mount as BONUS HD, not as ADVANCEMENT HD.
After all, a Paladin's mount isn't immune to getting hold ... what happens when it retires, it suddenly gets smaller again?
Pax said:
Well the extra HD do increase the saves and attacks as normal for a magical beast. So it's hardly unreasonable to use the normal advancement rules for monsters. A standard horse or even a dire wolf doesn't increase in size no matter what their hit dice are increased to, so there's no reason for them to include rules for that in the standard paladin mount rules.
Paladin's mounts do age and a dismissed mount does loose it's special abilities/bonuses. So yes it's quite likely that it would "shrink".
Lord Pendragon
First Post
This thread has brought up things I had never thought of before. And I have to admit that my roleplayer and powergamer halves are now in conflict. I like the heavy warhorse from a flavor standpoint. It fits my idea of a "knight in shining armour" better than any of the others. On the other hand, Rackhir makes a convincing argument for the wolf and the griffon.
I think that a great deal of this is going to depend on how my DM rules on a couple of issues.
1. Do Paladin bonus HD count toward monster advancement and the size increase for the griffon? (Is this unbalanced or reasonable? Would a huge griffon be more deadly than, say, the dragon that could be gained at an equal level?)
2. Is it possible to combine a Mount and a Cohort, and can the cohort "levels" be used to "purchase" a template for the mount? Thus creating something like a half-celestial griffon or half-celestial celestial heavy warhorse (I know that sounds funky, but technically since a "celestial" creature is merely a beast living on the Outer Planes, it should be logically feasible.)
I had no idea that the Collar of Resistance was so cheap for a +5. I know what my paladin's going to save up for!
BTW, on a related topic, are there any animals that are particularly connected with Pelor? My paladin is one of his faithful, though none of the beasts on any of the lists seem particularly Pelor-ish. If you catch my drift.
[edit] And this may be a dumb question, but: does Pelor exist in the Forgotten Realms? This is my first Realms character, and I chose Pelor without questioning if he existed in both settings. Perhaps I'll have to go with Lathander? [/edit]
I think that a great deal of this is going to depend on how my DM rules on a couple of issues.
1. Do Paladin bonus HD count toward monster advancement and the size increase for the griffon? (Is this unbalanced or reasonable? Would a huge griffon be more deadly than, say, the dragon that could be gained at an equal level?)
2. Is it possible to combine a Mount and a Cohort, and can the cohort "levels" be used to "purchase" a template for the mount? Thus creating something like a half-celestial griffon or half-celestial celestial heavy warhorse (I know that sounds funky, but technically since a "celestial" creature is merely a beast living on the Outer Planes, it should be logically feasible.)
I had no idea that the Collar of Resistance was so cheap for a +5. I know what my paladin's going to save up for!
BTW, on a related topic, are there any animals that are particularly connected with Pelor? My paladin is one of his faithful, though none of the beasts on any of the lists seem particularly Pelor-ish. If you catch my drift.
[edit] And this may be a dumb question, but: does Pelor exist in the Forgotten Realms? This is my first Realms character, and I chose Pelor without questioning if he existed in both settings. Perhaps I'll have to go with Lathander? [/edit]
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Combining a Mount and A Cohort is exactly how DotF goes about summoning a Dragon Mount.
-Hyp.
Lord Pendragon
First Post
Yes, but DoTF only uses this combination with dragons, and doesn't provide any guidelines for what I'm suggesting. Basically, they combine the creature you'd get with the paladin's mount ability and the cohort you'd get with the Leadership feat, then assign values to the various dragons. But what I'm suggesting is that the paladin gain a mount normally, then treat the levels of a cohort gained through Leadership as a template, which can then be applied to the Mount. I'm not sure DoTF supports this, though it does as you say lend credence to the idea of combining the abilities in some way.Hypersmurf said:
Hyp, say you're my DM. If I came to you at 6th-level and wanted to get a celestial heavy warhorse mount (per DoTF) and then wanted to take Leadership (result: 5th-level cohort) and add the Half-Celestial template (+3 ECL) and two levels of paladin to the Mount, would you allow it?
Adding templates onto a mount like that sound rather abusive, quite frankly. With either the paladin's mount or leadership, the follwer/mount is still supposed to be no higher level than the PC. A heavy War Horse is cr2 +1 for celestial, +3 half celestial, +2 Paladin. That's a CR 8, which is significantly higher than the Cr of a 6th level paladin.
You should defintely get something else out of burning both a feat and your mount for the same creature, but you might want to put off doing that until higher levels when there is more of a difference in the CR between you and the mount. Besides at 6th I think you are better off spending the feat on something combat related unless you will be spending most of your time mounted.
You should defintely get something else out of burning both a feat and your mount for the same creature, but you might want to put off doing that until higher levels when there is more of a difference in the CR between you and the mount. Besides at 6th I think you are better off spending the feat on something combat related unless you will be spending most of your time mounted.
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