Paladin Question...

[Vorput]

This is inspired by the other thread on refusing to come back to life!

Scenario: Party is fighting some evil monster, seeing that they're out-matched- the paladin bullrushes the monster off a cliff into a river of lava, paladin falls too- both die terrible fiery death.

Party mourns for Paladin, then decide to ressurect him to continue the battle agianst evil.

The Paladin is kicking back with his diety in a realm of eternal lawful good happiness. If said Paladin refuses to heed the clerics calling and come back to aid his party- does he lose his Paladin abilities, and ergo no longer qualify for the special seat at the Diety's table?

Vorp

 

[BadMojo]

Only if the paladin's deity is a real jerk.

 

[Drowbane]

Only if the paladin's deity is a real jerk.

Well, the deity *is* Lawful Good.

 

[FireLance]

Well, the deity *is* Lawful Good.

Ah, so that would be a "definitely no loss of abilities", then.

The Paladin is kicking back with his diety in a realm of eternal lawful good happiness. If said Paladin refuses to heed the clerics calling and come back to aid his party- does he lose his Paladin abilities, and ergo no longer qualify for the special seat at the Diety's table?

First of all, you can lose your paladin abilities and still be Lawful Good. If you're still lawful good, your place in the realm of eternal lawful good happiness is still assured.

Second, you only lose your paladin abilities for an evil act or a gross violation of your Code of Conduct. Refusing to return to the mortal world doesn't seem to fall into either category (see next point for elaboration).

Third, lawfulness implies succession planning. There's bound to be another who can fill the dead paladin's shoes and carry on fighting the good fight. In fact, if the group uses point buy and average hit points, he can even be an almost exact carbon copy of him!

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

...does he lose his Paladin abilities...

Absolutely. He might risk expulsion from the godly realm as well. Paladins are supposed to submit all of themselves so as to be an extension of their god’s will in the mortal realm. Refusing that at any time, in any place, for any reason and under any circumstances is reason for loss of Paladin powers.

 

[Nifft]

What does the deity want? And more importantly, what does the player want?

Cheers, -- N

PS: Doesn't the "dead" condition kinda put a damper on one's "Paladin abilities" anyway?

 

[jdrakeh]

Absolutely. He might risk expulsion from the godly realm as well. Paladins are supposed to submit all of themselves so as to be an extension of their god’s will in the mortal realm. Refusing that at any time, in any place, for any reason and under any circumstances is reason for loss of Paladin powers.

Since when does the will of the party constitute "god's will" Arguably, it was his god's will that he die (as the god let it happen). Returning to the mortal world at the behest of the party could easily qualify as shirking his god's will in favor of what his friends want. In fact, any form of death-cheating magic could easily be viewed as an attempt to circumvent the will of gods, rather than uphold it (as said magic is almost always initiated by men, where as final death seems to be the domain of gods).

 

[Sejs]

The Paladin is kicking back with his diety in a realm of eternal lawful good happiness. If said Paladin refuses to heed the clerics calling and come back to aid his party- does he lose his Paladin abilities, and ergo no longer qualify for the special seat at the Diety's table?

Once you're dead, you're officially off the hook as far as the whole duty thing goes.

You can go back if you want to, by all means, but you're no longer required to give your all for the good fight... because you already did... hence why you're dead now.

 

[Vorput]

Absolutely. He might risk expulsion from the godly realm as well. Paladins are supposed to submit all of themselves so as to be an extension of their god’s will in the mortal realm. Refusing that at any time, in any place, for any reason and under any circumstances is reason for loss of Paladin powers.

That might be where I come down... I suppose in this case- the Paladin could wander up to his God, poke him in the arm to get his attention, and ask "So... what do I do?" Might be a good advantage of being dead... unless the God shrugs... or tells him this choice is his... or something.

I wonder if the cleric just sits there watching the body while they decide if they're coming back or not...

Vorp

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Since when does the will of the party constitute "god's will"

It is not for the party. It is for the god, to live and go around being the living embodiment of the gods will. Others PCs don't really have much to do with it. It would all center on why the dead paladin refused to return. If he wants to stay in heaven when the god wants him to accept the raising - but leaves the choice up to him - then that is in defiance of the god's will.