Paladin Question...

[Sound of Azure]

There's every chance that the paladin has become a petitioner (or maybe a lantern archon)by that point, and may have other duties to attend to.

I think whether the paladin should be punished or not depends largely on the reason the other PCs are bringing him back, as well as why the paladin refused.

I wonder if the cleric just sits there watching the body while they decide if they're coming back or not...

Yeah, I hate message bank.

It is not for the party. It is for the god, to live and go around being the living embodiment of the gods will. Others PCs don't really have much to do with it. It would all center on why the dead paladin refused to return. If he wants to stay in heaven when the god wants him to accept the raising - but leaves the choice up to him - then that is in defiance of the god's will

No, it's in defiance of the God's desire and expectation. The god in your example gave the paladin petitioner the agency to decide. In giving a choice, there is left the possibility that the petitioner makes the "wrong" choice.... but it is the petitioner's choice to make, after all.

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

... but it is the petitioner's choice to make...

And wrong choices must be punished.

 

[jdrakeh]

It is not for the party. It is for the god, to live and go around being the living embodiment of the gods will.

If this were true, why did the god allow the Paladin to die? That seems to be at odds with a will that he wishes the Paladin to remain alive. Surely a god would prevent the death of one he didn't wish dead. Which brings me back to my earlier point. If the god didn't prevent the death of a character, one must assume that it was his will the character die. And, though a god may not prevent the casting of a spell that recalls the character to a mortal realm, they aren't the one who initiates it -- that action and, thus, will is of the party and their caster, not the Paladin's patron deity (unless he is forcing the party to cast said spell, in which case he'd be imposing his will on the party).

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

...why did the god allow the Paladin to die?

The god has rules he/she must also abide by, in addition to possessing an unknowable purpose.

 

[Sound of Azure]

And wrong choices must be punished.

Unless the god is really arbitrary (an unlikely thing for a Lawful Good deity), the deity's stance on this (and the Paladin Order's stance) would be firmly laid out in advance. In that case, then if the paladin petitioner still made the wrong decision, he'd deserve what ever punishment is mandated for such an offense.

As it stands though, all that's going on is that the other PCs miss their friend, and want him to help them in the (undefined) fight against evil. In my games at least, deities use their petitioners and servants for duties on the planes (and also as suitable choices for the planar ally series of spells), so they're not exactly just sitting around eating grapes and strumming harps.

If there was some terrible threat to thwart, I'd probably expect it to be in character for the paladin to want to return, but still not mandated.

 

[jdrakeh]

The god has rules he/she must also abide by, in addition to possessing an unknowable purpose.

I might be missing something here, but a few posts back you stated that it must be the god's will that the paladin be revived simply because he (the paladin) would be out there in the world doing things in the name of the god. That situation not only assumes a knowable purpose, but assumes intimate knowledge of the god's will. What I was saying is that, given the god allowed the PC to die, there is a very good chance that it is not the god's will that the PC be alive. Why? Because he's not.

What rules must the god abide by? It seems to me that you're holding the god to the party's wishes, not the other way around. That is, you're suggesting that just because the party casts a spell to revive the character, a god must let that happen. Which really seems to fly in the face of D&D's collective stance on gods as. . . well. . . gods. If a god is beholden to a party's wishes, I'm not certain that they qualify for said status. I think that, as a rule, the party should be beholden to gods, not vice-versa.

 

[Sejs]

And wrong choices must be punished.

If the paladin is supposed to be the living embodiment of that god's will...

... why did he have a choice, then?

May as well just tell the paladin that self-preservation is the sign of a fit mind, and thus not wanting to go on any missions means that he is fit to go on missions.

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, it could very well be that the paladin has no choice. The god may just give him a poke and back down he goes into the fight.

But, really, why would the paladin refuse the calling? He's a bloody paladin - going forth and slaying the evil is his whole reason for being. Being given a second chance to do what he is supposed to do, he should be jumping in with both feet.

 

[delericho]

Refusing that at any time, in any place, for any reason and under any circumstances is reason for loss of Paladin powers.

This is quite simply incorrect. A Paladin loses his status if:

1) He ceases to be Lawful Good or
2) He grossly violates the Paladin code or
3) He willingly commits and Evil act.

Declining to be raised fulfils none of these criteria.

 

[wakedown]

I'd vote that it depends on the bigger picture. If the paladin is question has led a full career in the service of his God, was near retirement and his last heroic action would be remembered and used as an inspiration to all other followers of the god, so his value at this point is higher with him as a deceased hero, he's fine.

Now if he's right in the middle of defying some huge evil plot from the opposing god and preventing a disaster and is in the prime of his paladin career, then I'd have a hard time understanding why the paladin would ever refuse.

Two extremes, but highlighting the point... if the paladin himself is not wanting to go back, it probably means he feels his career has come to an end, and if it hasn't he should be jumping to go. If it seems "weird" that he is refusing to go when there's more work to be done, then yeah, I can see him getting kicked out of his special seat next to his god