Paladins and Good Aligned Folk In War - Are Orc Children Slain?

[monkeynova]

I would not say the Lawful Good Alignment would stop him from killing orc (evil) children as much as his code of conduct. I would think his code of conduct would prevent him from killing the unaggressive (dam monks don't allow me to say unarmed ), or foes that are yeilding.

This I definitely agree with; I agree that the fact that the orc children are non-combatants would prevent a paladin or other good-aligned PC from killing them, moreso than them being children who could potentially be saved.

Since orcs are evil, I would think he could look the other way as others kill them. The code of conduct would not allow him to participate.

But like others have said these topics are open to interpretation.

I also agree that it's open to interpretation, and I would add that if these issues are something the DM expects that good-aligned PCs to consider, it is necessary for the DM to have someway of indicating this expectation in-game (either -- say -- through a divinely inspired dream which the character will feel compelled to interpret or through dogmatic training at the hands of a priest or priests of the major good religion(s) of the lands -- I figure even Kord, frex, looks unfavorably upon those who prove their strength by smiting the weak and helpless). I don't think it's fair to assume that good-aligned PCs are going to be always sensitive to what behavior is expected from that alignment; otherwise good characters are not always going to think through the moral consequences of each action they've taken.

monkeynova

 

[Sundragon2012]

It comes down to Nature or Nurture and the quality of evil (or Evil) in your gameworld. Are orcs inately violent nasty cruel and all around Evil with a capital E? If they are, then the best solution is extermination down to the last child. They're part of the armies of Evil and there can be no peace or rest for Good while they exist. And the paladins will get nice shiney medals for it.

If they're not, then like all defeated peoples they will be assimilated into the victor's society. Eberron is a decent example of there, where slums of goblins live as second class citizens and menial workers. Depending on the culture of the victors the surviving orcs are taken as slaves, made serfs for the newly apointed lords of the conquered territory, or made a new province that's mostly left alone so long as they pay their taxes and don't attempt to raise arms. Expect to see a lot of cultural mixing as new settlers move in, a lot of racial tension and a lot of half-orcs. War is about claiming resources, and conquered peoples are one of the prime resoucnes to be won.

I think that in Eberron the model of integration and assimilation works because the assumptions are very different, not just regarding alignment but regarding the cultures themselves. In the 2e Al-Qadim setting orcs, goblins and ogres lived in cities as well and were not inherently anything. Their cultures made them evil and no inherent wickedness.

In worlds modeled after Tolkien or more traditional high fantasy setting combined with D&D's alignment system I can see a real disconnect between what would happen in the aftermath of a terrible conflict between men/dwarves/elves and orcs/goblins/hobgoblins and anything that has ever been seen in fantasy literature or any such tales.

For example, the men of Gondor and Rohan may be noble and good but does anyone have any illusions about them taking in orc foster children after the fall of Sauron if they were to encounter any? If anything they would ride right by a wandering orcish youngling and leave the creature for the wolves. The only thing stopping folk like these from killing this wandering orc orphan would not be thoughts of "good guys don't do that" but that it is beneath their personal code of conduct/honor to lower themselves to kill any child. Warriors don't lower themselves to such things and whatnot but not a sense of sentimenatlism about the innocence of orcish childhood and such profoundly modern sensibilities.

In regards to paladins or knightly types I believe it would be their code that prevents them from killing non-combatants and not merely the concerns of alignment.

I think in most High Fantasy settings, the ophaned humanoids would be left to die without a second thought. I couldn't imagine for a minute the dwarves of FR or the elves of Middle Earth concerning themselves with fostering the young of such creatures.

In alternate settings like Eberron, such things are both acceptable and believable.


Chris

 

[Quasqueton]

The gods made the races in their own images.

Gruumsh made orcs CE. If an orc is not CE, it is probably NE or CN.

Moradin made dwarves LG. If a dwarf is not LG, it is probably NG or LN.

More deviation than one step is rare. The alignment is built into their "genetic code".

There are some very rare alignment abberations (usually are PCs), but a paladin can bet his code that the orc children will grow up to be dangerous chaotic and evil monsters, even if raised among loving, lawful and good dwarves.

Generations of proof exists, plus there is the various magical divinations that show the truth definitively.

Quasqueton

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

When I ran the party through Sunless Citadel back in my wild and crazy 3.0e days, they band encounted a large group of Kobalds. Including the sick, the old, and the young. Well the Paladin of Heironeous, after slaying the warriors, turned on the children and the old and began to put them to the sword. One member of the band tried to let them escape, but the few that got out where ran down by the warriors and they killed them too. Well Heironeous wasn't very happy about that and send dreams of failure and dishonor to the Paladin. Not becuase he was LG, but becuase he is a Knight and the code of Heironeous states that you never strike a defenseless or unarmed foe, there is no honor is such things. So he realized the error in his ways and repented and prayed for forgiveness and was forgiven. If he had went overboard and kept on such behavior he would have fallen from Paladinhood. But a LG cleric or Fighter? Well I can see leaving them for the tender mercy of nature, but putting them to the sword isn't wrong since they are inherently evil.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

For example, the men of Gondor and Rohan may be noble and good but does anyone have any illusions about them taking in orc foster children after the fall of Sauron if they were to encounter any?

I may be wrong here-- and in the case of the Uruk Hai I know I'm definitely right-- but orcs aren't born, they're manufactured.

So, conveniently, Aragorn can't possibly encounter any orc children.

 

[jodyjohnson]

Tolkien orcs and goblins are spawned fully adult and fully evil.

No grey area there.

(At least as visualized in Pete's FotR).

That's what we use in our campaign.

They have explosive growth because you can make as many as you want, but then you need to feed, equip them.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Well the Paladin of Heironeous, after slaying the warriors, turned on the children and the old and began to put them to the sword. One member of the band tried to let them escape, but the few that got out where ran down by the warriors and they killed them too. Well Heironeous wasn't very happy about that and send dreams of failure and dishonor to the Paladin.

I wonder how Heironeous feels about it when those kobolds survive, grow to adulthood, and go on to kill good and decent human worshippers of Heironeous.

Is he happier then?

EDIT: And just to be clear, kobold children aren't defenseless (they have claws and teeth-- because, you know, they are flesh-eating monsters) and you did your paladin player a disservice by putting him in a no-win situation.

 

[Tarangil]

Paladins and Good Aligned Folk In War - Are Orc Children Slain?

That would seem to be a yes and no answer. Any good aligned company with a Paladian as a commander wouldn not. Maybe with a Chaotic good commander, but that's like flipping a coin.

I'd see a good aligned crew that's not severely bent on revenge for slain loved ones take the orc childrean and perhaps educate and civilize them for the greater good of their people and somehow influence the orcish race...but boy, I'd hate to be the teacher.

Neutral good might make a pragmatic choice and kill them if there wasn't enough resources at home to house feed and train the younglings.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I wonder how Heironeous feels about it when those kobolds survive, grow to adulthood, and go on to kill good and decent human worshippers of Heironeous.

Is he happier then?

EDIT: And just to be clear, kobold children aren't defenseless (they have claws and teeth-- because, you know, they are flesh-eating monsters) and you did your paladin player a disservice by putting him in a no-win situation.

It's not easy being a Paladin of a God of Chivalry and Honor. Puts one in all sorts of situations that may require one to make the non-practicle decision in the name of honor and the code. Honor or convienence is the question I guess. The possible future deaths of others don't change the code or the eternal truth for which it stands.

P.S. the Paladin player helped me come up with the code, you can see it if you want on Canonfire, and agreed with the way things ended up playing out. The charcter didn't lose anything, other than a few nights sleep.

 

[Sundragon2012]

I may be wrong here-- and in the case of the Uruk Hai I know I'm definitely right-- but orcs aren't born, they're manufactured.

So, conveniently, Aragorn can't possibly encounter any orc children.

Even if the Uruk Hai are "created" which may or may not be the case....regular orcs are a race that reproduces like any other. Maybe the men of Gondor and Rohan wouldn't encounter Uruk Hai, who knows....but they certainly could encounter regular orc children.

[sacasm] I wonder how many steps toward evil Aragorn and Legolas would move if they didn't go out of their way to rescue the wandering orcish children from starvation, disease, predation or exposure?

I wonder if Gondor and Rohan would open up foster homes for orcish kiddies orphaned in the war that could have destroyed mankind? [/sacrasm]

Am I the only one who believes that there is something ridiculous about even the thought of such a thing even from the good guys?


Chris