Paladins - How to play/make them?

[MithrasRahl]

We're playing a campaign right now, and my friend is playing a Paladin. It's a party of six, with the others being a wizard, shugenja, rogue, archer, and fighter/tank. What role should the paladin fill, and what stats/skills/feats would reflect it?

 

[smootrk]

Well, your fighter will probably be much better in combats overall. Your paladin friend might do well in certain situations (fear effects, definitively evil folks, etc), but should probably take on a defensive role, protecting casters or preventing flanks on your main tank fighter. Turn undead might be a necessary function for you since you do not have a regular cleric (and I am unsure of the effectiveness of shugenja in this area), but otherwise get divine feats that are powered by your turn ability (since with a high CHA, you will be able to do this repeatedly). High Charisma will be much more useful for your paladin abilities, than trying to devote to standard combat abilities (like STR, CON, DEX) although if you have the option, I would crank up INT in addition to the Wisdom & Charisma stats. This allows you to have access to more defensive combat feats, as well as Skill points that you can devote to diplomacy, sense motive, etc so that the character can be the main spokesman.

a little disorganized, but I hope it helps.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Well he only has one role, Fighter with some secondary healing. You won't make a party buffer with the limited selection and caster level halved. You can however wield a wand of cure light wounds (or better yet, that other spell that gives regen 1 for 11 rounds) 750 gp for each wand. The nice thing is it's a $$ resource not a feat or anything like that. You can heal a LOT once a day with your laying on hands, but after that you will need lots of cash for scrolls of the better cure spells or even Heal. I'm recently a big fan of taking leadership feat for a cleric if no one wants to be the walking bandaid. I'm also a big fan of that being the one who needs the most healing (the fighter/tank).

Though there is a complete divine feat that lets you heal a small amount of all living creatures (including enemies) in a 20' radius. This or divine metamagic so you have some use for your turn dead ability when there arn't any (or maybe even when there are). If it's low enough for you to destroy with turning your sword will work better. I'd also say power attack is a must have for anyone with a full BAB. You don't want to be unable to harm an opponent with damage reduction.

Now with your group it's likely no one has high charisma (not sure about the shugenja), so you might be the primary diplomacy character. Also Healing is a frequently overlooked skill. Free extra save on poisions and diseases is worth it in my book.

For stats, your' going to be hard pressed, unless you roll well. Some of the best advantages of being a paldin you won't be able to get much out of if you are using 28 point buy. I don't have the point buy table so I'll leave the suggestions for the other, but you will be mostly balanced possibly dumping dex and int (to 8 or 10), then balancing the other four stats.

edit: Side question. What abilities would you assign with 28 point buy?

 

[kenobi65]

Well, as you've only got one other front-line fighter in the group, you're likely going to need to be able to fill that role (high Str, good AC).

Paladins suffer from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency), and smootrk touched on that. I think the two primary attributes that you should focus on are Strength and Charisma, followed by Constitution and Wisdom. A good Charisma helps the paladin in several ways, and, among other things, helps you serve the function of a secondary healer in the group, thanks to lay on hands. I think you can afford a not-great Dexterity, and just go for heavy armor and focus on melee weapons. Intelligence would be nice to have, but if you're doing point buy for your stats, I wouldn't spend much on it, as you'll need those points elsewhere.

As your undead turning ability will be weaker than than of a cleric of comparable levels, look into divine feats that let you use those turn attempts for other things...Divine Vigor is my personal favorite.

 

[kenobi65]

You can however wield a wand of cure light wounds (or better yet, that other spell that gives regen 1 for 11 rounds) 750 gp for each wand.

Lesser vigor is the spell in question. Great bang for the buck if you're outside of combat; in combat, the HPs come back too slowly to be of much use.

 

[kenobi65]

edit: Side question. What abilities would you assign with 28 point buy?

My primary Living Greyhawk character is a paladin of Heironeous, and LG is a 28 point buy. I did:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 14

He's now 5th level (going on 6); I'm putting my stat bumps into Cha, and have bought Gauntlets of Ogre Power. I do, in retrospect, wish I'd gotten the Con a little higher.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I'll second kenobi's suggestion for stats. 8 or 10 on dex and int, 12-13 on wis and 14-16 on str and charisma. Depending on your point buy system or rolls.

I hadn't played one yet (been waiting for a good roll, same with monk), but one thing I have seen with other players is.... It's embarasing for a paladin to not be able to be effective in combat, even if you are in a largely role playing game. So no matter what role I'd expect to fill, I'd probably keep these same stats and focuses.

 

[smootrk]

Lesser vigor is the spell in question. Great bang for the buck if you're outside of combat; in combat, the HPs come back too slowly to be of much use.

Except that I do not believe that the Vigor spells are on the Paladin spell list.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Except that I do not believe that the Vigor spells are on the Paladin spell list.

ah, good point. Nevermind.

and thanks for 'vigor' I couldn't get 'regeneration' out of my head and knew that wasn't right.

 

[Zaruthustran]

All the bases are covered, so the paladin should do what comes naturally--be a secondary tank and healer. Since the Paladin has Lay on Hands, good hit points, good save, heavy armor, but few feats, he is a durable combatant but lacks the feats required to get the most out of TWF or even two-handed fighting. So tell your buddy to embrace the paladin's strengths and build as heavy a tank as he can. Optimally, the other players will never have to worry about coming to his rescue. He'll be a dependable rock.

Paladins get Turn Undead so you might suggest taking advantage of that ability via Divine feats. Divine Might and Divine Vigor are terrific.

Depending on the rogue's skill choice, it might be up to the Paladin to be the party face. So dump skill ranks in Diplomacy. For the other skill, choose something that fills a gap. Know: Religion is a good default.

Unless the player is planning on focusing on mounted combat, don't worry too much about Ride. Just summon the horse as a size Large independent speedbump or overland vehicle, neither of which require ride checks.

So, assuming 28 point buy:

Str 14
Dex 12 or 10
Con 14
Int 10 or 8
Wis 12
Cha 14 or 16

Int and Dex are the Paladin's dump stats, in that order.

Recommended feats:

1 Shield Specialization (human bonus: WF: long sword)
3 Power Attack
6 Divine Might
9 Divine Vigor

Heavy armor (mithral full plate if you can get it), large shield, cold iron longsword, adamantine morningstar, silver battle axe, a couple light hammers or javelins, dagger, composite longbow (+2 str), mix of arrow types, oil, holy water, lantern, sunrods, holy symbol, rope, spikes, backpack.