Paper Minions - WT?

[KarinsDad]

Ok, I get it. Give all minions 1 hit point so that they fall over easy and the rule for handling them is super simple.

But, 1 hit point at all levels???

How do these 25th level Minions even survive? Or is it just hand waving it away? The Minion actually has 200 hit points when fighting each other or fighting other NPCs, they just have 1 hit point when fighting PCs. I'm just having a bit of a mental picture problem with a vicious minion Giant that can lay waste to an entire village stubbing his toe and dying.

I'll probably change this to something like 4 hit points plus 2 hit points per level (or some other similar equation once I analyze the hit points and defenses of monsters), even if it means lowering the number of minion opponents in an average fight by 1 or 2. They will still fall down fairly easily (often with one hit at low levels, a few hits at higher levels), but at least a Ray of Frost that hits will not always be (shy of cold resistance) insta-kill against 25th level creatures.

 

[Xzylvador]

The giant attacking and demolishing town, wouldn't be a minion, it'd probably be an elite or soldier. The 20 giants storming you at the command of the giant-king (a brute or elite) as you enter his throne-cave, are minions.

 

[Harr]

It's hand-waving it away.

Hp are not literal representations of wounds. The 1 hp of minions is meant to represent that they have no stake in the fight and will fold/fall over/run away/surrender/cry at the slightest hint that it isn't going their way. That's all.

Picture a soldier who's separated from his commander, looks around at the carnage, gets hit with a rock or something and starts bleeding, and goes 'you know what... they ain't payin' me enough for this sh*t.'

A Giant minion isn't a minion unless said Giant has been brought along by a bigger Giant and made to attack a village when it would have rather been sipping from giant coconuts at home. Said Giant will say 'yeah screw this' at the slightest hint of trouble.

 

[Derren]

Or is it just hand waving it away?

Welcome to 4E.

 

[Pabloj]

So are minions a situational thing?

An orc is a normal monster, like a soldier, when the PC´s are lvl 1, and a minion when they reach lvl 5 (or whatever)?

 

[VannATLC]

There are a lot of threads covering Minions already.

They work perfectly for what they are supposed to be. Its a metagame construct, for piting minions of an equal level against the pcs, and supplying threat and numbers. They don't need more than 1 hit point. Ever.

If you're uncomfortable with the concept, don't use them.

At the same time, I don't believe there is any reasonable reason to be uncomfortable, yet still expect to enjoy the game 4e is.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Ok, I get it. Give all minions 1 hit point so that they fall over easy and the rule for handling them is super simple.

But, 1 hit point at all levels???

How do these 25th level Minions even survive? Or is it just hand waving it away? The Minion actually has 200 hit points when fighting each other or fighting other NPCs, they just have 1 hit point when fighting PCs. I'm just having a bit of a mental picture problem with a vicious minion Giant that can lay waste to an entire village stubbing his toe and dying.

I'll probably change this to something like 4 hit points plus 2 hit points per level (or some other similar equation once I analyze the hit points and defenses of monsters), even if it means lowering the number of minion opponents in an average fight by 1 or 2. They will still fall down fairly easily (often with one hit at low levels, a few hits at higher levels), but at least a Ray of Frost that hits will not always be (shy of cold resistance) insta-kill against 25th level creatures.

It is a bit of a mental adjustment from 3e, I agree.

But the point of minions is allowing characters to fight multiple monsters at all levels without the game getting bogged down in long, drawn out fights.

Those level 25 minions, as noted, are only relevant to the PC's - as that's the only time their HP are important to anything. Anything that's Off-Camera can be decided by the DM - but when those guys are On-Camera the PC's get to shine and be heroes and kick some ass.

4e really focusses things on the PC's as central to the game. Does it really matter what stats a creature has when it's not in direct relation to the PC's? Surely if a Giant attacked a village you wouldn't roll it out, you'd just adjudicate - but if you want the PC's to turn up and heroically kill it instantly, make it a minion and it just dies. However, until it's dead it's a serious threat to them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So are minions a situational thing?

An orc is a normal monster, like a soldier, when the PC´s are lvl 1, and a minion when they reach lvl 5 (or whatever)?

Yes, that's a good way to see it.

There are (as far as I know) no hard rules on when to "switch" from normal monster to Minion, but judging from the Angel excerpt and the Legion Devil excerpt, I'd say the level difference should probably be around 8-12 levels. Using an actual monster of that level would be pretty pointless (hits only on a 20? Is missed only on a 1?) and time-consuming (Still requires hit-point tracking and damage dice rolling), so instead, just use the Minion equivalent.

Some monsters are "inherently" Minions - like Kobold Minions. Think of these as the 4E equivalent of Commoners of any given race. They can be dangerous, but in the end, they are not really trained for combat and will lack the willpower and training to withstand danger.

Another poster (Lizard) suggested that, if hit points are as abstract in 4E as they seem to be, you could freely decide that dropping some to 0 hit points might just mean he retreats (and won't do anything harmful doing so - so no retreat and inform the guards stuff, but retreat to a nice and safe corner so that he doesn't interfere or interact with anyone).

 

[Jedi_Solo]

It's hand waved to avoid bookkeeping of the hit points. What happens when a minion has... say... 30 hp and the player rolls poor on damage and gets a 29? Then you need to keep track of which member of the mob of minions has 1 hp remaining which defeats the entire purpose of the minion.

 

[Cadfan]

So are minions a situational thing?

An orc is a normal monster, like a soldier, when the PC´s are lvl 1, and a minion when they reach lvl 5 (or whatever)?

Yes.

The theory is that by the time the PCs are of the appropriate level to fight a level 25 minion, the low end damage on their attacks is high enough that it makes sense for the minions to die in one hit. Giving them 1 hp just makes that happen more efficiently, and avoids bookkeeping.