Paragon ECL

[Xeoble]

Did wizards ever put out an ECL for the "Paragon" template?

 

[Sejs]

At a guess.. I'm gonna have to say alot.

+15 seems like a good start.

 

[Crothian]

I don't recall, but it's easy to figure. Take a look at the ecl for the Paragon creature in ELH, then subtract the ECL of the normal creature.

 

[kreynolds]

I pegged the template at about a 15 to 16. I wouldn't suggest going higher than that.

 

[kreynolds]

Take a look at the ecl for the Paragon creature in ELH, then subtract the ECL of the normal creature.

That doesn't work very well, depending on the system you use. According to the ELH, the paragon mind flayer has an ECL of 26. According to Savage Species, the mind flayer has an ECL of 15. That would net a total ECL of 11 for the paragon template. Doesn't come out right.

Also, the paragon template's ECL varies greatly depending upon what you put it on. On a human, the ECL will be much lower than +15 or 16, but on a creature with spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, special attacks, etc, it will be higher.

 

[Crothian]

Also, the paragon template's ECL varies greatly depending upon what you put it on. On a human, the ECL will be much lower than +15 or 16, but on a creature with spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, special attacks, etc, it will be higher.

But ecls never vary, it's always on flat number.

 

[Nifft]

But ecls never vary, it's always on flat number.

But CR additions for templates do vary -- there's no reason why ECLs have to be static.

As long as you have an understanding with your players, it's fine to penalize a given race with different ECLs in different environments. An Aquatic Elf is ECL +0 in a land-based campaign, but ECL +1 in an aquatic campaign.

-- Nifft

PS: I'm not saying that there are obvious and unambiguous rules to scale ECLs -- clearly the opposite -- I'm just saying that there's no reason to assume ECLs are any more set in stone than CRs are.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Template ECLs should be flexible, anyway-- the Half-Fiend template is more powerful on a Troll than on a Human, so Half-Fiend applied to a Troll should add more of a Level Adjustment than Half-Fiend applied to a Human. Half-Dragons with wings have a higher level adjustment than Half-Dragons without wings.

If the Paragon loses access to its special attack bonuses because of a lack of special attacks, then it should be a lower ECL than when applied to a creature with abilities the template enhances.

 

[Crothian]

It should work that way but nothing supports that they actually do.

 

[millipj]

Just a thought.

Given that it says (in the ELH) that " Paragons [are the] strongest, smartest, luckiest, and most powerful of the species [and] may represent the mythical First creatures created in its perfect form [...] and perhaps the evolutionary endpoint." - wouldn't this make level advancement (and ECL) kind of superfluous?

"Bow before me for I am the Paragon Mindflayer - and a 1st level wizard...."

And, yes, I know it does say Advancement by character level in the description