Paragon ECL

[Xeoble]

Thanks guys, i'm going to try to put together a 15 level "level advancement" for paragon (not that it will be very hard) and post it on house rules. Well, unless someone beats me to it ::chuckle::

 

[kreynolds]

It should work that way but nothing supports that they actually do.

Yes they do. CR is variable. ECL is a measure of a PCs CR. If the CR varies, the ECL varies. If a template adds +1 Hide checks for all creatures, and DR 50/+100 to anything but humans, then obviously, the CR modifier will be lower for a human. Thus, the ECL modifier will be lower for a human.

 

[Caliban]

Yes they do. CR is variable. ECL is a measure of a PCs CR. If the CR varies, the ECL varies. If a template adds +1 Hide checks for all creatures, and DR 50/+100 to anything but humans, then obviously, the CR modifier will be lower for a human. Thus, the ECL modifier will be lower for a human.

ECL is not simply a measure of a PC's CR.

CR is a measure of how challenging a creature is in combat for a balanced party of 4 characters.

ECL is a measure of how powerful and effective the race/template is, both in combat and out of combat.

That is why ECL is generally much higher than CR for creatures who have a lot of non-combat abilities, or abilities that are useful both in and out of combat (such as regeneration).

While it makes sense that some templates would have a variable ECL based on the creatures race and/or HD, it doesn't actually state that as a rule or guideline anywhere.

I think it's well within the DM's prerogative to make that call though.

 

[Crothian]

Yes they do. CR is variable. ECL is a measure of a PCs CR. If the CR varies, the ECL varies. If a template adds +1 Hide checks for all creatures, and DR 50/+100 to anything but humans, then obviously, the CR modifier will be lower for a human. Thus, the ECL modifier will be lower for a human.

CRs are variable, but nowhere I have seen or has it been mentioned that ecls are. I understand the reasoning for them being so, but as of yet that has not happened in practice.

 

[kreynolds]

While it makes sense that some templates would have a variable ECL based on the creatures race and/or HD, it doesn't actually state that as a rule or guideline anywhere.

Nowhere does it say that ECLs are constantly static either. It is no great leap of logic to look at a CR 30 monster (combat oriented) and know that it will have a higher ECL than a CR 1 monster. This doesn't have to be implicitly stated as rule. The system is simply designed this way. Either one accepts it or they don't...like goat cheese and para-sailing.

(Ah crap...that came across really snarky. Let me try and soften that up a bit.)

 

[kreynolds]

CRs are variable, but nowhere I have seen or has it been mentioned that ecls are.

And nowhere have you seen it neither has it been mentioned that they aren't. The very system we are talking about here (d20) demands that they are.

 

[Crothian]

And nowhere have you seen it neither has it been mentioned that they aren't. The very system we are talking about here (d20) demands that they are.

Okay, so the arguement reaches an impass. The old "just because it doesn't say you can't" circle. You seem to think it's in the system because the system doesn't say it isn't there, and I say it is not in the system because the system doesn't have it.

 

[kreynolds]

You seem to think it's in the system because the system doesn't say it isn't there, and I say it is not in the system because the system doesn't have it.

No. I'm saying logic dictates that it _is_ in there, that the system already does this. Look at the paragon. They get...

1) +13 to special attacks. Does a human have any racial special attacks not derived from class levels? No.

2) +15 to caster level (manifester level) for spell-like abilities or psionics. Does a human have any racial spell-like abilities or psionics? No.

Both of these contribute to the paragon's CR. If the base creature has neither of these abilities, then the CR is lower. The same applies to ECL. If a human had both of these abilities, it's ECL would be higher. But because humans have neither of these, it's ECL will be lower.

Further down, in the Challenge Rating descriptor, note that the CR varies depending upon the number of hit die of the base creature. So, it's ECL would also vary based upon the number of hit die of the base creature.

 

[Bismark]

What if the base creature had none of these abilities, so you gave it a reduced ECL. Then later on it gained those abilities. Would you give it the bonus, and adjust its ECL?

 

[kreynolds]

Then later on it gained those abilities. Would you give it the bonus, and adjust its ECL?

Yes, as I would do to a character that became a werewolf or werebear.