Paralyzed Mounts and Riders

[Scharlata]

Hi!

During the last encounter (with some Ghuls invading a tavern) some questions came up that I'd like to dicuss here at the MB.

If a mount (here: a horse) is paralyzed:

1.) and its Strength score is 0, can it support a rider and his equipment (DMG Paralysis vs. PHB Carrying Capacity)? Is the paralyzed mount stiff and can't move a limb or is it too weak to support it's own weight?

2.) and its Dexterity Score is 0 and therefore it is helpless, does it count as helpless to determine whether or not someone can pass through the 4 squares it occupies without the use of the Tumble skill? Can someone end his movement in one of the 4 squares just as with any other helpless creature?

3.) can a rider use all of the 4 squares the mount occupies to attack from his mount just as if the mount could move normally? Is the rider hindered in any way to do the things he could normally do while mounted?

4.) Is there anyone who thinks the 3.5 rules for mounted combat are a cheap excuse for any DM to use war mounts against the PCs? Why would someone not fight from atop of a warhorse, when a heavy warhorse deals so much damage with a full attack routine and the Ride check DC is relatively low for fighting on a warhorse?

5.) Thanx for your thoughts

Kind regards

 

[sledged]

1.) and its Strength score is 0, can it support a rider and his equipment (DMG Paralysis vs. PHB Carrying Capacity)? Is the paralyzed mount stiff and can't move a limb or is it too weak to support it's own weight?

Without looking any of this up, I'd say it can't support its own weight, and falls over. Now if it were paralyzed by a compulsion effect, that'd be different.

2.) and its Dexterity Score is 0 and therefore it is helpless, does it count as helpless to determine whether or not someone can pass through the 4 squares it occupies without the use of the Tumble skill? Can someone end his movement in one of the 4 squares just as with any other helpless creature?

Don't see why it wouldn't be the latter.

3.) can a rider use all of the 4 squares the mount occupies to attack from his mount just as if the mount could move normally? Is the rider hindered in any way to do the things he could normally do while mounted?

No, the mount is lying on the ground, and he had to make a ride check to make sure he didn't get injured by the falling mount.

4.) Is there anyone who thinks the 3.5 rules for mounted combat are a cheap excuse for any DM to use war mounts against the PCs? Why would someone not fight from atop of a warhorse, when a heavy warhorse deals so much damage with a full attack routine and the Ride check DC is relatively low for fighting on a warhorse?

It's not like the players can't have warhorses, too. And it's not like your DM is going to throw every enemy at you with mounts. He's bigger issues if he's having that gelatinous cube is attack you from horseback.

 

[rrealm]

I would have to agree with sledged on all those points.

 

[Scharlata]

Hi

Without looking any of this up, I'd say it can't support its own weight, and falls over. Now if it were paralyzed by a compulsion effect, that'd be different.

And when you'd look it up . I can't tell you what kind of paralysis it was because the Monster Manual only states (page 119 Ghoul) Ghoul Paralysis is (Ex), nothing more. The DMG states on page 296 (Paralysis): Some monsters ... have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen, and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.

That are the key words for me. You cannot fall down when you are incapable of fallling.

Just why is the Ghoul Paralysis (Ex) when the DMG says that paralysis is (Su) or (Sp)?

It's not like the players can't have warhorses, too. And it's not like your DM is going to throw every enemy at you with mounts. He's bigger issues if he's having that gelatinous cube is attack you from horseback.

Sorry, me stupid; I'm the DM and I am the one who will use only attackers on heavy warhorses against the PCs in the future...

 

[rrealm]

Hi



And when you'd look it up . I can't tell you what kind of paralysis it was because the Monster Manual only states (page 119 Ghoul) Ghoul Paralysis is (Ex), nothing more. The DMG states on page 296 (Paralysis): Some monsters ... have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen, and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.

That are the key words for me. You cannot fall down when you are incapable of fallling.

If I got someone to run up a wall really quickly and then I successfully ghoul touched them, they would be stuck to the side of the wall. Odd.

 

[Scharlata]

If I got someone to run up a wall really quickly and then I successfully ghoul touched them, they would be stuck to the side of the wall. Odd.

Hi!

Paralysis does not include stickyness or weightlessness as far as I'm reading the entries. So, no, you wouldn't cling to a wall if you were paralyzed climbing a wall. The wall would not support your weight and you do not have a sticky substance on your hands/feet to adhere to a wall or other near vertical surface.

But paralysis is not like the real world poison Curare that causes the muscles and body to "relax totally" therefore causing paralysis that a) won't support your weight and b) causes death because the paralyzed victim can't breath. That, IMHO, would cause you to fall prone.

The DMG states that you don't "relax" but "freeze" in place, not being able to move a limb. Because of the difference of the two types of paralysis (the real world and the fantasy world paralysis) I asked my question in the first place.

I don't think you would suggest that a humanoid statue of frozen water that has no limbs to move would adhere to a wall, do you?

My argument is: You're frozen, can't move a limb, so you a thouroughly stiff (rigid, like in rigor mortis). If you're a totally rigid you can't fall prone (you can still fall from any height, if someone pushes your body). If you can't fall prone you can support your weight because your muscles are rigid and not relaxed.

Kind regards

Odd...

Kind regards

 

[RigaMortus]

Well if you are frozen in place, that doesn't mean you have the ability to adjust your weight so you don't fall. It is very possible that the way your body is positioned, more weight could be on one side than the other, thus causing you to tip over.

 

[sledged]

have the supernatural or spell-like ability to paralyze their victims, immobilizing them through magical means. A paralyzed character cannot move, speak, or take any physical action. He is rooted to the spot, frozen, and helpless. Not even friends can move his limbs.

That are the key words for me. You cannot fall down when you are incapable of fallling.

If you knew the answer, why did you bother asking this:

Is the paralyzed mount stiff and can't move a limb or is it too weak to support it's own weight?

Anyway paralysis seems to be one of those murky abilities, but it seems a minor issue. As you said, there's essentially two types of paralysis, the kind where you freeze in mid action, and the kind where there is no longer any signals being sent your muscles, and they all go limp.

The d20 definition of paralysis falls under the first category, it's a compulsion effect that makes your brain tell your muscles to freeze where they are (e.g. Hold Person), or it's an external force that holds you in place (like being incased in stone). Real-world paralysis falls under the second category (e.g. hemi-, para-, and quadriplegics).

In gaming this translates into the freeze-type paralysis reducing your dexterity to 0; your strength remains the same. The "go all limp" type paralysis translates to you strength being reduced to 0, your dexterity score remains the same.

Now let's pull a couple of quotes from the DMG:

• Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
• Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless

If a character has both a 0 Str and a 0 Dex, the description of the Paralysis ability states that the Dex 0 rule supercedes the Str 0 rule. However, I'd house rule the Str 0 rule applies over the Dex 0 rule, because you can't stand if you lack the strength to do so. And to keep the game mechanics the same I'd change the sentence to read:

A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless

So with all this, let's go back to your questions.

1.) and its Strength score is 0, can it support a rider and his equipment (DMG Paralysis vs. PHB Carrying Capacity)? Is the paralyzed mount stiff and can't move a limb or is it too weak to support it's own weight?

With my house rule, its strength isn't zero, so it can still support its own weight and its rider.

2.) and its Dexterity Score is 0 and therefore it is helpless, does it count as helpless to determine whether or not someone can pass through the 4 squares it occupies without the use of the Tumble skill? Can someone end his movement in one of the 4 squares just as with any other helpless creature?

Yes, and yes.

3.) can a rider use all of the 4 squares the mount occupies to attack from his mount just as if the mount could move normally? Is the rider hindered in any way to do the things he could normally do while mounted?

I'd say he's no longer effectively mounted and it's the same as if he were sitting on a wall or ledge and attacking. So he only attacks from one square, he gets the circumstance bonus for being on higher ground, and he also suffers the penalties for fighting from a prone position. It would require a move action for him to get off the frozen mount or stand up on top of it. However the latter would require a balance check.

He's bigger issues if he's having that gelatinous cube is attack you from horseback.

I should really learn to proof-read a little better.

He's got bigger issues if he's having that gelatinous cube attack you from horseback.

 

[Scharlata]

Hi!

If you knew the answer, why did you bother asking this:

I gave a ruling IMC last session and I have players that argued "nay". So, I knew my answer, but liked to hear from y'all. There is a (slight ) possibility that I'm wrong that I liked to get excluded by qualified public knowledge.

With my house rule, its strength isn't zero, so it can still support its own weight and its rider.

Yeah; me too!

Yes and yes.

Dito.

I'd say he's no longer effectively mounted and it's the same as if he were sitting on a wall or ledge and attacking.

Ok.

So he only attacks from one square, he gets the circumstance bonus for being on higher ground...

Yupp.

..., and he also suffers the penalties for fighting from a prone position.

I think that is a little over the top.

It would require a move action for him to get off the frozen mount or stand up on top of it.

Sounds right.

However the latter would require a balance check.

Alright.

Thanx. It's always a pleasure with sledged.

 

[rrealm]

My argument is: You're frozen, can't move a limb, so you a thouroughly stiff (rigid, like in rigor mortis). If you're a totally rigid you can't fall prone (you can still fall from any height, if someone pushes your body). If you can't fall prone you can support your weight because your muscles are rigid and not relaxed.

I agree completely. I was just being a stinker with my comment above.