Party AC difference

[UngeheuerLich]

What an idiotic thing to write dude. We discuss these things here so that people can cross pollinate ideas and come up with ideas for their games, regardless of whether we agree or disagree about some minor game aspect.

There is nothing wrong about discussing, but the way you dismiss everything other people say is not discussing. Maybe it is because it is not my native language and i am interpreting too much in what you say. But it doesn´t sound like discussing to me.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Such as? We are talking Storm or Chaos Sorcerer here. Are you talking cover? There is no cover if an enemy walks up to the Sorcerer and smacks him.

from the compendium:

Storm Soul: You gain resist 5 thunder and resist 5 lightning. This resistance increases to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level.
While this resistance is active, your arcane powers ignore all targets’ resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance.
If you are hit by an attack, you can end this resistance as an immediate interrupt to gain a +4 power bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn. If you do so, the resistance returns after you take a short rest or an extended rest.

Wild Magic
You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos. Whether tapping into the power of primordial beings or drawing strength directly from that plane, you unleash magic in wild surges.
Chaos Burst: Your first attack roll during each of your turns determines a benefit you gain in that round. If you roll an even number, you gain a +1 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. If you roll an odd number, you make a saving throw.

Maybe better inform yourself before asking questions which are easy to look up. It gives your opinion a bit more weight...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The larger the variance in AC, the larger the variance in encounter outcome. Again, assuming the DM doesn't fudge things.

Fudging like having all monsters know before the fight begins, that the guy without armor and a simple walking stick, moving clumsily is a threat at all?
Ignoring those people who seem to be the real threat?

 

[Mengu]

Regarding terrain... I don't think it can be used as a game balancing feature. When you can have an archer ranger sitting at AC 17 or 18, and a chaos sorcerer sitting at AC 13 or 14, both of whom have the exact same role of back line striker, something feels slightly amiss. They are both going to find the same terrain features. They are both going to be jumped by lurkers equally. And they are both going to receive the same protection from their defenders. So why does the sorcerer have to spend a feat so he can be only slightly behind the ranger in AC?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Regarding terrain... I don't think it can be used as a game balancing feature. When you can have an archer ranger sitting at AC 17 or 18, and a chaos sorcerer sitting at AC 13 or 14, both of whom have the exact same role of back line striker, something feels slightly amiss. They are both going to find the same terrain features. They are both going to be jumped by lurkers equally. And they are both going to receive the same protection from their defenders. So why does the sorcerer have to spend a feat so he can be only slightly behind the ranger in AC?

Flavour.

And i suppose area spells like the sorcerer has, which ignore concealment and access to spells which have some push and slide effects, the sorcerer can ignore the archers higher AC and can bring him into a worse positioning (its not a 1vs1 game). And i believe the archer should have an edge against a sorcerer in a 1 on 1 situation as the sorcerer has an advantage in mass fights.

 

[KarinsDad]

from the compendium:

Storm Soul: You gain resist 5 thunder and resist 5 lightning. This resistance increases to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level.
While this resistance is active, your arcane powers ignore all targets’ resistance to that damage type up to the value of your resistance.
If you are hit by an attack, you can end this resistance as an immediate interrupt to gain a +4 power bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn. If you do so, the resistance returns after you take a short rest or an extended rest.

Wild Magic
You draw your spells from the entropic forces of the Elemental Chaos. Whether tapping into the power of primordial beings or drawing strength directly from that plane, you unleash magic in wild surges.
Chaos Burst: Your first attack roll during each of your turns determines a benefit you gain in that round. If you roll an even number, you gain a +1 bonus to AC until the start of your next turn. If you roll an odd number, you make a saving throw.

Maybe better inform yourself before asking questions which are easy to look up. It gives your opinion a bit more weight...

A +1 bonus to AC every other round on average is a whopping +0.5 to AC.

Yeah, that brings the 13 AC up a lot.

The +4 bonus to defenses for an entire round doesn't average +1 AC for the entire encounter either. So, it is still subpar 14- AC on average.

And all of these bonuses are conditional, not automatic. They may or may not be there when the Sorcerer needs them.

There is no way that these tiny or infrequent bonuses to AC are anywhere near the other Strikers AC 17s without taking feats.

Yes, a Cosmic Sorcerer could be in the Phase of the Moon or a Dragon Sorcerer could be bloodied, but those AC boosts are conditional as well. And since not all Cha based races give +2 to Str, it's very possible to be running a starting Cosmic or Dragon Sorcerer with an AC of 13 as well.


The Sorcerer takes Leather Armor and goes from AC 13 to AC 15. Now what? Another feat for Hide Armor?


The Ranger is at AC 16 or 17 before taking any feats.
The Monk and Rogue are at AC 16 before taking any feats.
The Assassin, Avenger and Barbarian are at AC 17 before taking any feats.

The Sorcerer is at AC 13 or 14 before taking any feats. That's an average of 3 lower than the other classes.

You seriously think that these little conditional AC boosts put the Sorcerer in the same league defensively as the other Strikers? You do realize that some other Striker classes have conditional AC or other defensive boosts as well.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Do you think that it does?
I thought, you were a bit more clever...

I said there are conditional bonuses, not that they equal a +3 bonus.

Can you see the difference between a ranged character and a melee character? can you see the difference between an area attacker and a single target killer?

I repeat my question: Do you really believe everything must be the same?

AC 13 is low, too low maybe. I also believe AC 20 for a frontliner is too low and AC 16 for a squishy rogue too. So i believe everything is too low actually... the delta is ok.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Oh, and i believe conditions should not be delivered by pure AC attacks and that reflex should never be higher than AC.

 

[blargney the second]

Edit: moved to the other thread.

 

[Nifft]

Regarding terrain... I don't think it can be used as a game balancing feature. When you can have an archer ranger sitting at AC 17 or 18, and a chaos sorcerer sitting at AC 13 or 14, both of whom have the exact same role of back line striker, something feels slightly amiss. They are both going to find the same terrain features. They are both going to be jumped by lurkers equally. And they are both going to receive the same protection from their defenders. So why does the sorcerer have to spend a feat so he can be only slightly behind the ranger in AC?

Rangers have powers which grant them personal mobility -- one even works as an Interrupt, with the trigger being "enemy moves adjacent".

Sorcerers have powers which allow them to attack a bunch of foes, and they also have powers which grant them HUGE defensive bonuses.

So, if three Minions attempt to close with your Ranger (as a set-up for the Lurker to flank), he can run away a few times. If three Minions attempt to close with your Sorcerer (as a set-up for the Lurker), he stands a good chance to kill them outright.

Cheers, -- N