Party AC difference

[Nifft]

Personally, I'm all for stats not increasing with level, ever, no enhancement bonuses, and you can get up to 4 differentiation (light armor +1, heavy armor +2, shield), but then we're talking about 5e for some of that, and pure houserules for some other.

That solves a bunch of other problems (like the ballooning discrepancy between weakest defense and strongest defense) but requires re-working most critters.

Also, players like when numbers go up, so you'd need to find some other way to give them that perk.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

Well, getting +1 to everything every level is an improvement over what we have now, and you could do that easily in that circumstance

Otherwise, yeah, you have to rely on other little perks and benefits to be interesting enough to players instead of a raw +1 AC or attack or whatever.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, it's not. A competent Defender can actually be pretty good at checking enemy movement.

Feel free to illustrate your POV instead of just making the claim.

Well, I partly take that back. You're fairly clever, so you could probably figure out ways to screw your party's Defender out of being able to use his class abilities. But do you really do that every encounter?

I see. If someone disagrees with your accessment, then they are screwing their party's defender? Whatever.


Last I saw, it's damn easy to get past a defender as long as the room is 20 feet wide. Just go down path "p". If the defender moves 5 feet to the right, just go down the opposite side of the room. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

| . . . p |
| . . . p |
| . D . p |
| . . . p |
| . . p . |
| . W . . |

It's not that hard unless of course you play your NPCs as idiots. The Fighter with an Int of 8 uses better tactics than the monster with an Int of 10. Why would a foe want to attack a heavily armored foe when a more lightly armored one is easy to get to?

 

[Nifft]

Feel free to illustrate your POV instead of just making the claim.

Sure, PHB pages 75-88.

It's a good read, have fun with it.

I see. If someone disagrees with your accessment, then they are screwing their party's defender?

If your party's Defender can't ever actually defend, then someone in your group is doing something wrong.

Quite possibly including your Wizard, who seems to have chosen his location poorly: no cover, no hindering terrain, and no companions to keep critters off him. Is that it? Is the guy who plays the Wizard in your game just really bad at tactical movement?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Victim]

Yeah, that's why defenders generally try to get into melee with enemies instead of just being slightly in front of their allies. It's also why they have powers like Come and Get It.

I mean, we should all know by know that screening along a straight line won't usually prevent monsters from getting to back line characters. So why take up those positions? How can you be 3 squares away from melee and not expect to be attacked?

 

[DracoSuave]

| . . . p |
| . . . p |
| . D . p |
| . . . p |
| . . p . |
| . W . . |

Nice strawman argument.

Here's a more realistic one.

| . E . E | None of these monsters have a way to melee
| . . . . | the wizard without sucking an OA.
| . . E . |
| . . . . |
| . D . . |
| W . . . |

Or if you're certain the enemy is the only one:

| W . . E | In this situation, the Enemy is marked
| . . D . | and so even if he can shift/teleport
| . . . . | to the wizard, he'll be taking
| . . . . | a defender's punishment.
| . . . . |
| . . . . |

But, if you're going to use absolutely bad tactics, you're right, the defender can do nothing... because he's not defending.

Also, Strikers who never make attack rolls can't actually strike.

Tautology club go!

 

[Mengu]

With 4, feats of any kind like armor specialization shouldn't give an AC bonus ever. With 6, you can allow such a feat to exist.

That and you're ignoring the plain 'This guy has +1 armor better than you' that often happens in a group.

Unfortunately, 1 feat and a single bump in armor can net +3 AC (considering masterwork armor or stat bumps). So the difference from level 10 to level 11 between low and high may go from 5 points to 8 points.

I really wish ripping the AC gap between characters to 8 or 9 points was not possible, but currently, it can definitely happen without players necessarily doing anything wrong (unless unoptimized=wrong).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Unfortunately, 1 feat and a single bump in armor can net +3 AC (considering masterwork armor or stat bumps). So the difference from level 10 to level 11 between low and high may go from 5 points to 8 points.

I really wish ripping the AC gap between characters to 8 or 9 points was not possible, but currently, it can definitely happen without players necessarily doing anything wrong (unless unoptimized=wrong).

And it is perfectly viable... a game where AC difference is 0 without any effort is really boring...

It is really he right decision to have some classes which don´t use armor without special training... there are classes that can´t do rituals without special traing...

of course, both is usually only one or two feat(s) away, but it means the character consciously decided that his wizard needs protection or that the eladrin figher can also perform some rituals...

If everything is the same, why bother at all...

 

[KarinsDad]

Sure, PHB pages 75-88.

It's a good read, have fun with it.

Uh huh. Where exactly are the low level powers and abilities that prevent the enemy from moving past the front rank?

If your party's Defender can't ever actually defend, then someone in your group is doing something wrong.

Quite possibly including your Wizard, who seems to have chosen his location poorly: no cover, no hindering terrain, and no companions to keep critters off him. Is that it? Is the guy who plays the Wizard in your game just really bad at tactical movement?

No Defender can ever protect every single other member of his party for every other round. That's impossible.

The best he can typically do is hold down 1 to 3 foes situation depending. In a 5 foe scenario, that means that 2 to 4 other foes can attack whomever they want.

How does the Defender protect the Wizard from Artillery foes when he is busy locking down the Brutes?

 

[KarinsDad]

Nice strawman argument.

Here's a more realistic one.

| . E . E | None of these monsters have a way to melee
| . . . . | the wizard without sucking an OA.
| . . E . |
| . . . . |
| . D . . |
| W . . . |

Nice strawman argument.

Here's a more realistic one.

| . E . E | None of these monsters have a way to melee
| . . . . | the wizard without sucking an OA, so they attack
| . . E . | the other PCs instead.
| . . . . |
| . D . . |
| W A . . |
| . . B C |

| . . . . |
| . . . . |
| . . . . |
| . . . . |
| . D E . |
| W A E E |
| . . B C |

Sure, the defender can start marking some of these foes next round, but in the meantime, he wasn't defending anyone.


If you actually had bothered to read what I wrote and what Nifft was responding to, it's that the monsters in my game often attack most PCs at least once per encounter, often multiple times.

If the defender is trying to protect the Wizard, then he is opening up a hole for the enemies to attack someone else.

My only point is that the Defender cannot protect everyone every single round. In fact, he typically cannot do that for a single round.


So getting back to the AC issue, it's real easy for monsters to attack a low AC Wizard or Sorcerer in many encounters. That's the reason that a first level delta of 7 in a D20 system is bad design. The player is basically forced to pay the feat tax or the power tax or both, or the PC is going to be unconscious on the ground a lot.

Can the spell caster hang back 10 squares? Sure he can. His Close Blast spells are worthless then.