Party Conflicts and Different Moral Agendas

SHARK

First Post
Greetings!

Wow! What a game! The other night we had the first game of a new campaign. There are sixteen characters in the group, as follows:

(1) Zaratheena; F, High Elf Ranger 1
(2) Katrina; F, Akainu (Human) Barbarian 1
(3) Doren; M, Dwarf Fighter 1
(4) Rodrigo; M, Margallen (Human) Rogue 1
(5) Axel; M, Vallorean (Human) Cleric 1
(6) Ellandra; F, High Elf Druid 1
(7) Darnu; F, Harthak (Hippo humanoid) Wizard 1
(8) Kaelyn; F, High Elf Wizard 1
(9) Drallyn; F, Ogre/Earth Elemental Fighter 1
(10) Jazzerrah; Seren (Human) Expert (Courtesan) 1
(11) Nobben; M, Marlyr (Humanoid) Rogue 1
(12) Haldain; M, Valdar (Human) Barbarian 1
(13) Malabar; M, Seren (Human) Fighter 1
(14) Zerren; M, Uullannar (Leopard humanoid) Ranger 1
(15) Ghorn; M, Troll Hybrid (Insectoid) Fighter 1
(16) Berrech Finndor; M, High Elf Wizard 1

The campaign began with the group being gathered together in the city of Zallenar, which is a powerful, wealthy city in the ancient Seren Empire. The Seren Empire was founded over 5,000 years ago, and is a great empire. The Seren Empire blends elements of the ancient Babylonians, with the Central Asian cultures of the steppe tribes, the mercantilism of ancient Samarkand, as well as Canaanite cultural influences. In addition, a few elements of the later Persian Empire are also included.

The group found themselves being recruited to the "Company of the Silver Horn" by Berrech Finndor. Berrech, a handsome elf wizard, was offered employment by Lord Thallabar, a frontier nobleman ruling a rugged land on the northern frontier. Berrech has come to the great city of Zallenar to recruit members for the company, in order to prosecute operations of exploration and war against various groups of brigands and monsters that have been disrupting trade and attacking local communities.

The group was gathered together in the luxurious hotel, known as "The Jade Hippo" located in the prestigious Hal-Doran District. The group got situated in their quarters, and enjoyed eating and getting to know each other. Soon, the group were each briefed on what the conditions of membership were, the expected rewards, and the general scope of their first set of missions.

The group partied and engaged in all manner of festivities and debaucheries, as they variously prepared for the next day's journey.

The group hiked deep into the rugged wasteland to the north, gradually getting into some dense forests, and a range of hills and canyon areas. The company came under attack by a powerful group of Gnolls. The Gnolls attacked ferociously, driving many of the company into a dreaded situation. Many members were seriously wounded and near death. The company rallied, and launched a savage counter attack. The group was eventually victorious.

Gradually, the group scouted out the local area, and tracked the Gnolls to their lair. Once there, the group carefully stormed the cavern complex where the Gnolls had made their home. Numerous slaughtered Gnolls later, and the party pushed on deeper into the caves. The group found the remains of a 12-year old human girl who had been tied down inside one of the caves and bitten and clawed to death. Evidently they had used her as a sort of living snack, healing her, then biting her, and so on. Finally, they devoured enough of her that the pretty young girl had died. Axel shook his mace in rage, raising it to the heavens and vowing revenge!

The group found a large nesting area, and discovered 18 young Gnolls. The group then fought a ferocious counterattack by the surviving mother Gnolls and defeated them. The party cooperated well, used good tactics and spells, and helped each other overcome the enemy forces in a well-coordinated assault.

Then, Axel, Doren, and Rodrigo, applauded by Nobben, began slaughtering the young Gnolls. Axel zealously grabbed several of the young Gnolls, and began crushing their heads in with his Heavy Mace, crushing them like eggshells. Doren waded into the slaughter with his war axe, while Rodrigo began slaughtering them cooly with his shortsword. Zaratheena, and Katrina began screaming at them to stop such cruel slaughter, and in desperation, Berrech attempted to put Axel under a Sleep spell. Alas, all to no avail! Axel resisted two sleep spells from Berrech and Kaelyn. The black steel mace, inlaid with silver, and bearing the twin-headed eagle of the Empire of Vallorea, rose and fell in its bloody work. Soon, all too soon, the young Gnolls were all slaughtered.

Zaratheena: "Why did you do this, Axel? Yes, you...I'm talking to you!"

Katrina: "Damn, that was just wrong!"

Axel: "What my lady? What we did here was GOOD! My great and holy god, Vallenar, of the glorious Vallorean faith, has decreed that all such foul and evil creatures be rooted out and destroyed! Do you not also worship a good and righteous deity? I thought elves, after all, worshipped good deities?"

Zaratheena: "Well, yes, we do worship good deities, but that doesn't mean that we should slaughter such creatures! They were no threat to you, were they? Yes, their parents were, and we rightfully killed them. But these young creatures--might we not have been able to raise them to worship good deities, and follow a righteous path? Instead, you have killed them all, and provided others of their race merely more reason to hate us, and come back and kill more and more. Why would you not even listen to us?"

Axel: "Listen to you? To do what, my lady? Listen to you as you would have stayed my righteous hand from delivering a just and righteous wrath against these evil scum! These creatures, these MONSTERS!--were spawned from the womb of darkness! Their very existence is a blasphemy upon the whole world that the gods created! Their savage, dark ways must die with them. For that, and all of the blasphemies of this vile, heathen race, they must be scourged from the world of man! The great gods of Vallorea have charged us to carry forth the war against such wicked spawn, for this is the way to victory and righteousness!"

Katrina: "Who is Vallorea? Where is Vallorea? I've never heard of them! Why should we all do what the Vallorean gods say?"

Zaratheena: "Yes, why do you think that the Vallorean gods tell you everything? Creatures are not born evil, they are raised and grow into being evil. Your short-sighted bloodlust has not only killed innocent creatures, but you have missed out on the opportunity to raise them to follow goodness. You could have gained them as friends and allies, had you had the wisdom to listen, and the patience to stay thy hand. But no, instead, you just had to ignore us, and go ahead and do what you wanted! You should know, you are merely a human. I am four times your age. Elves have been in the world far longer than your kind, and it seems that we know something of nature, and of living creatures that your short-sighted, impatient race seems oblivious to. What makes you think that you know everything? That your gods have told you everything? Would not your gods want allies and friends instead of enemies? You speak at length like you know so much, but from my point of view, you seem to know little of truth!"

Axel: "Well, my lady, have you not heard of the glorious Vallorean Empire? And you, Katrina, listening to your own tales of the matriarchal lands where you come from, where you exalt your heathen gods, you are merely a heathen barbarian woman, and someone who should hold her tongue around her betters!"

Doren: "These creatures were evil! It is good that we killed them. Kill them all. Kill them all!"

Zaratheena: "I have never heard of this "Vallorean Empire" that you speak of in such glowing terms. Here, you are in the Seren Empire, and our ways are different from your own!"

Axel: "Ah, yes...I understand that you have heathen gods, and different customs. But you must understand that Vallorea is the greatest empire in the West, indeed, the world, and brings light, truth, and civilization to the dark lands around us. Vallorea has a sacred duty to bring the Peace of Vallorea to the barbarian and heathen lands around us, wherever we encounter it! Where will champions of righteousness be found? All that is good and pure must be defended! These creatures are born evil! There is no amount of milk and honey that would make them otherwise! Dreams and wishful thinking will not take the thirst for slaughter and the taste for blood from these monsters. They would only grow up to bring slaughter and death to those of the civilized and righteous peoples. And so, we have done a holy duty by saving future lives of the faithful by killing these horrid, evil creatures now. This is what we had to do, because it must be done! It is my belief that we had to do what we had to do, for the glory of the gods, and to protect our people!"

Zaratheena: "Yes, that might be your belief, and your belief is wrong, too! You need to think about things more, and listen to people around you that have different approaches, and not just assume that your way is the best way, or the only way!"

Malabar: "Indeed, Axel, where is this "Vallorean Empire"? You are in the Seren Empire now, and our Great King rules from the majestic city of Sargen, the greatest city in the world, and it is he who raises up whom he shall raise up, and he shall cast down whom he shall cast down. Your laws, and your ways are not our ways. You must have a care that you are far from Vallorea now."

Axel: "Oh...indeed, Malabar, I thank you for the Seren people's generosity, strength, and hospitality, for this is a great and mighty nation!"

With that, the group seemed to settle down, and tend to the many wounded members of the company. The party by this time was far down in a large underground cavern, with a lake in the distance. They were tired, wounded, and beaten down. The group scavenged from the lairs of the Gnolls, and tended to their wounds as they recuperated.
____________________________________________________

Now, have you encountered these situations before? There seems to be a growing rift between several of the characters, both over attitudes and methods, as well as goals. Do you see merits in one or both of their positions? The humans are primarily Lawful Good, while the Elves are Chaotic Good. How well do you think such different alignments can deal with the tensions involved?

The session was a blast! It was great fun, especially watching my players go at it like this in a totally unexpected, spontaneous kind of scene!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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Hi Shark. I think such PC vs PC moral conflicts are great, if they don't actually split the party. Of course the truth of either position somewhat depends on whether gnolls etc really are born evil, or not, in your gameworld. I tend to see eg propensity to aggression & violence as inborn amongst the evil humanoid races, but inborn true evil as pretty rare, about as rare as extreme psychopathy in our own world.

One thing - I've had trouble in the past as a player where my Paladin PC's morals differ from the GM's view of his world; eg I played a Vallorean-style paladin who saw it as his mission to cleanse the world (Mystara in this case) of evil forces. When we captured evil orc prisoners, after interrogation he executed the cooperative orc captive as quickly and efficiently as possible - he had no desire to cause it pain or suffering, but he wasn't going to let it go to wreak more evil (always annoys me when Buffy lets Spike go 'just one more time', or Angel/Darla) :)
The GM seemed to see executing evil prisoners as un-paladinesque, whereas I regarded it as practically the epitome of LG paladinhood - the paladin hated having to kill helpless prisoners - he'd much much rather have slain them in fair combat - but because of his oath, he couldn't let them go. And he wasn't going to be a hypocrite and give the orcs some token weapon ("Pick up the gun!") & force them to fight him to falsely salve his conscience. Being a paladin (to me) is about doing the right thing, even when doing the right thing sucks.
 

Greetings!

Hey there S'mon! How are you? It's good to see you my friend!

Well, I think it is kinda important to keep the "truth" as far as Gnolls' alignment a mystery. I mean to say is, I don't think that I want to explicitly decide the issue for players, because then the answer is out in the open, and it's a done deal so to speak. What more is there to discuss then? Do you see what I'm saying?:) I like to just shrug and look at each of them and say "perhaps you are right" or "Then again, perhaps you are right" so that the mystery remains *with them* and they can forever ponder and argue about which view is right. I think there is significant evidence to support both views, so I tend to think it is a good element of mystery to keep. What do you think S'mon?:)

I also think it is within the purview of Paladins codes' and the Lawful Good Alignment to have paladins that believe in swift and ruthless judgment. It seems to depend on the particular deity that the paladin follows. Despite what many may choose to believe, embracing a code of swift and ruthless judgment and wrath is a very valid part of any good alignment, and in many ways can be seen to very necessary for the forces of good to even survive. Such a view may make some people uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean that such a philosophy is incompatible with Good. Those who are against such, I think, just have a narrow view of what "Good" alignments, especially Lawful Good, means, or can embrace.

I think your playing a "Valloreanesque" paladin is great! It adds drama, depth, and greater dimension to the character as an individual. Embracing such is also good, because it allows for a greater variety of paladin and cleric types, for otherwise, they can often seem to be blurred into cookie cutters, so to speak. This greater variety then allows for different kinds of fun, dramatic stories to be told about your heroic, ruthless, and grim paladin, fighting in a dark world!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Sorry a bit of an aside, what kind of methods are you using to keep a game with that many players running smoothly. I don't think I've ever heard of a game with quite so many PC's.
 

So, where's the link to the Story Hour you'll be writing for this group/campain? With a sample/teaser like the opening bit you just can't deny the avid SH addicts thier just fix!

I was also wondering how in heck you (plural sense) manage to keep a 16 person group under control. I have a hard enough time with the 4 I usualy run with, let alone trying the 6-8 we have at my montly game (player). 16 is just way outta my scope as a player or DM.

Are those speaches verbatim? If so I'm wondering if your players aren't Japanese (think Anime tirades ;)) by birth or inclination with those speeches.

Maybe the group, or at least those that are inclined to give monster 'children' a chance, could start a "Home for wayward Monster Young", where Clerics and others of goodly nature could try to bring them into the light. Or perhaps just 'adopt' one as a Cohort/Henchmen for someone in the group. Lacky/servant anyone? Nothing says power like Humanoid servants :D

Hatchling Dragon
 

All I can think is... 16 players?!?!? Good god man. That's insane. Surely some if not all of them are playing two or more characters? Ironic, if they are arguing with their own characters. Having 16 players is asking for trouble right there. I can't see how you can give equal time to all of them individually. Ah, but that's not your dilemma, eh? Well, anyway....
 

While I agree that keeping the "truth" about morality ambiguous, the beliefs of certain organizations should be fairly concrete. If the "Vallorean" code of Lawful Good gives no quarter to evil races, even helpless infants and such, then it's perfectly right for a character following that code to do so. The objective morality may or may not agree (or may not exist, who knows really?), but the character is still following his alignment and belief system. He may see other LG characters as evil, though there is room for more than one interpretation of Lawful Good.

A character from another region may also be Lawful Good, yet grant quarter whenever possible, in order to redeem the evil races. He would probably take prisoners much more often and generally be a bit more pacifistic. The same logic applies to this type of LG as the previous one.

My point in this, in case I made it unclear is that there is no inherently correct viewpoint on this. Each side will have an agenda, or code, or whatever you want to call it, and will support that code with whatever logic it is based upon. Both sides are justifiable, but that doesn't mean the characters have to agree with each other. On the whole though, both sides are still good. It's the minority of situations (probably) where the minor differences will come into play. They may argue over the finer points, but they still have the same ultimate goal.
 

mistergone said:
All I can think is... 16 players?!?!? Good god man. That's insane. Surely some if not all of them are playing two or more characters? Ironic, if they are arguing with their own characters. Having 16 players is asking for trouble right there. I can't see how you can give equal time to all of them individually. Ah, but that's not your dilemma, eh? Well, anyway....

possibly not 16 players. he said 16 PCs. quite possibly there are 8 or 4 players, with multiple PCs each.
 

Olive said:


possibly not 16 players. he said 16 PCs. quite possibly there are 8 or 4 players, with multiple PCs each.

Uh, yeah... that's what I said... "surely, some if not all of them are playing multiple characts...etc..."
 

A moral conflict like you had in your group would destroy many of the groups I have played with

I had a similar in character dilema in a rolemaster campaign a few years ago.

The long and the short of that very bad experience is that I no longer allow evil aligned characters or charcters who are not on the same philosophical wavelength.

IME if there are any serious in character philsophical disagreements the campaign will be over with three sessions, max


Its kind of sad actually the type of people into RPG's in my area are just not capable of much subtlety or intrigue
 

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