Party with a striker(s) that isn't a Rogue

[Tenniel]

It's great everyone has a defined combat role. It's cool that you now can live without a cleric. But outside of a combat, you really need someone to find and remove traps. It is interesting that the non-rogue strikers have Perception (Ranger) and Thievery (Warlock) making them half a burglar each, making me think the game designers had the non-combat functions of strikers in mind.

Do people find Rangers take the Rogue multiclass and Warlocks skill training Perception (assuming they generally won't have the stats for Ranger multiclassing) to fill the gaps. Or do other members pick up the slack when there is no rogue. Or do people tough it out with traps? Or do DMs go easy on traps, when it is clear from PC choice that traps not excite the players?

 

[IceFractal]

Find traps? Yes, but there are other classes with Perception as a skill, and there's always Skill Training if necessary.

Disable traps? Not as necessary. Sure, a Rogue is the stylish way to deal with traps, but most traps can be either:
A) Triggered from range.
B) Destroyed from range.
C) Negated (cover the arrow slits with a door taken off its hinges).
D) Avoided.
E) Survived.

 

[Nifft]

A Ranger, Cleric or even Fighter could have better Perception check than Rogue anyway, since Wisdom is a Rogue dump stat. One feat for the +5 and that character is solid.

Warlocks have Thievery on their skill list, true, but they have little use for Dexterity. An archery Ranger, sub-optimal er I mean wand Wizard, or heavy blade melee dude would tend to have a respectable Dexterity. They'd do better at the Thievery role than a Warlock, though it would cost a feat. (Actually, I guess the Warlock could use that feat to take Skill Focus and make up most of the difference. Huh.)

Rogueless Thievery could be seen as a use for Eladrin. This may be a good thing.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Thanee]

Havn't had a problem with it. The Warlock has trained Thievery, and the difference between a moderate Dex and a decent Dex is just 2-3 points, anyways.

The Cleric started with Perception +12 at 1st level.

Bye
Thanee

 

[DracoSuave]

Almost every trap has multiple ways to circumvent it written into its design. Thievery's just one of those ways.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So far, of the traps we've found, my rogue has successfully used thievery to disable one part of one trap.

Everything else was just smashed to bits or was a trap that triggered and did not reset.

I don't have the best perception in the party either.

 

[Tenniel]

Thanks for those comments.

In 3e, I used to think Int was the most important Rogue ability (for Search/DisableDevice and multiclassing as wizard) even over Dex. Now in 4e Perception is Wisdom based, it would seem other classes might be better at finding traps. It is good that going for high Wisdom opens up Ranger multiclassing as an option as that is better than Skill Training-Perception.

While there might be more than one skin a cat (or spring a trap), finding it in the first place is still advantagous.

 

[Nifft]

In 3e, I used to think Int was the most important Rogue ability (for Search/DisableDevice and multiclassing as wizard) even over Dex.

Amusingly enough, now Int is 100% pure dump stat for a Rogue.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kzach]

A Ranger, Cleric or even Fighter could have better Perception check than Rogue anyway, since Wisdom is a Rogue dump stat. One feat for the +5 and that character is solid.

This.

One of my big gripes about 4e is that rogues make crappy scouts. And since rogues get so much benefit from feats, you really don't have a feat spare to pick-up Skill Focus. And even if you do, you're still probably behind the ranger.

It's come up several times when I've played a rogue now in 4e games and everyone expects me to scout ahead and I refuse. Everyone thinks I'm being an ass, but what's the point of scouting ahead when you have no Perception? The cleric is a better choice for finding traps than the rogue

 

[Victim]

A brutal rogue can drop CHA and use WIS as a third good stat. It hurts roguish Bluff and Streetwise stuff, but helps Perception and Insight, making the rogue a better scout.