Passive perception - all secrets revealed?

[Final Attack]

Passive perception.

An elf walks into a bar ... and notices the floor trigger for a spear trap, and the control mechanism on the far wall. He also spots a secret passage behind the bar.

My question is how does passive perception really work in the 4th ed. Are all spear trap floor mechanisms instantly seen by the high perception party member? Are all secret doors now instantly revealed? Or does the DM give a hint about them (which is one step away from actually telling players).

 

[kouk]

Passive perception.

An elf walks into a bar ... and notices the floor trigger for a spear trap, and the control mechanism on the far wall. He also spots a secret passage behind the bar.

My question is how does passive perception really work in the 4th ed. Are all spear trap floor mechanisms instantly seen by the high perception party member? Are all secret doors now instantly revealed? Or does the DM give a hint about them (which is one step away from actually telling players).

If a player has boosted his Perception high enough to detect traps automatically, then I think that's fine. What good is it to have a secret door if the players never find it?

And I think it would be much simpler to notice those low level traps like the Lvl 2 Spear Gauntlet, but as traps get higher level they will fall out of passive range. Especially when upgrading to Elite versions.

If it is getting to be no fun with players noticing every trap, just make up a reason that a certain trap is better hidden than normal, not a big deal.

 

[fba827]

Yeah, if the DC to find them is low, then I guess the PC would find it (the advantages of aving a high passive perception).

Just keep in mind that the character should be able to see it, so lighting, distance, and size of the item to be seen may be a factor to consider (though not necessarily an issue in a small tavern).

From a DM's perspective, I'd suggest not just blurting it out in one long sentence to the player. Instead, describe what's closest and then just add a transition line like "and as you approach the bar to order your drink, you notice ... and while sitting at your table towards the back you notice ...." (or something -- just not everything out in one big "blurt")

 

[Scud.NZ]

From a DM's perspective, I'd suggest not just blurting it out in one long sentence to the player. Instead, describe what's closest and then just add a transition line like "and as you approach the bar to order your drink, you notice ... and while sitting at your table towards the back you notice ...." (or something -- just not everything out in one big "blurt")

I definately agree with this. To my mind Passive Perception is kind of like a "Spidey-Sense". I'd give them enough information to let them know that they need to react to the situation.

In the situation described in the initial post if the elf's PP was more than the DC of the trap/secret door plus modifiers I'd tell the elf player that there is something not quite right about the room, and it is possibly dangerous. "Kind of like the feeling you get when you see the minefield sign...is tense the word I am looking for?" The elf now has a decision to make. He can search for traps "get out the knife and prod the sand" by rolling a Perception check vs Trap DC as he is actively searching for it.

Or he could do something different. I don't think that PP is intended to fill the same role as Detect Traps did in past editions, as such. Bear in mind also, that just because the elf knows that the trap is there, it does not mean that he is going to be able to Disable it. That is still something the rogue gets to do.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Unless the ranger trains in Thievery .. I mean ... with that much dex, why not?

 

[Xzylvador]

Any Elf Archer-Ranger(Rogue Multiclass) is equal/better at perception and thievery than the party rogue... He's got 2 stats he needs for anything he does: Dex and Wis, which just happen to get a racial boost and add to any rogue skill. Oh, he does have another racial bonus to perception. Take alertness at lvl2 (lvl1 is the multiclass feat) to increase the fun.

 

[Final Attack]

Ok serious game issues though.

Kobold trap room their are spear traps all over the floor. The elf ranger walks in and ...

1. can instantly see all the trigger pads, and the location of the control box. Tells the party where they are and they can avoid all of them?

Pit, spear traps and any that have a spot DC will never work again. A player with decent PP will always be able to spot them, and bypass them.

2. Gets a 'feeling' the room is not safe. Preforms a through search and finds them.

Once again. Traps will never work. As a DM I will look at the spot DC and instantly know that the party will be able to find and bypass it.

3. Not see it unless he is actively looking.

 

[PHGraves]

1 or 2 - Depending on your style of gameplay.

3 - Only if you want to remove Passive Perception and Passive Insight out of the game. If you cannot use PP to notice traps and secret doors, exactly how useful is it?

 

[clearstream]

1 or 2 - Depending on your style of gameplay.

3 - Only if you want to remove Passive Perception and Passive Insight out of the game. If you cannot use PP to notice traps and secret doors, exactly how useful is it?

Player has spent a feat and skill pick on skill. Let player benefit from skill.

As DM, you own every DC in the game. If you have one super-skill user take note of that: the elf loves to find tricksy things. Make fun for elf.

-vk

 

[theNater]

A few things about traps:

1) Perception usually reveals triggers and control panels. The players don't know what will happen if they trigger the trap, only that is will probably be bad.

2) Identifying a trap is not the same as disabling a trap. Monsters who are aware of it can use the trap as hazardous terrain, trying to push or lure the PC's onto trigger squares, and certain trap setups can be difficult to disable, such as a 2-square wide hallway with a 2x5 section of trigger squares and the control panel at the far end.

3) A "decent" passive perception is not sufficient to spot most traps. It is common for the PC to need 10 points in bonuses above and beyond the 1/2-level bonus. Only dwarves, elves, and humans can manage this without feat or item bonuses, and the dwarves and humans would need an 18 wisdom from point buy. If a player has spent that many character creation resources on perception, he is indicating that he wants to avoid nasty surprises, and should generally succeed.