Pastoralists vs Agrarians vs Nomads

[TheLostSoul]

Actually, as I recall- Greenland and Vinland were not nearly as icy in the days of the Vikings as they are now. Trees and grapevines were definitely growing...There were even permanent structures.

However, "The Little Ice Age" radically altered the climate, making those lands the way they are today.

Quite true. The problem is that the trees that lived there were small and not very suited to shipbuilding. That was a huge problem for a settlement that still continued to keep contact with Europe. Thus, the timber expeditions

 

[TheLostSoul]

Good, thoughtful post.

joe b.

Thank you

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Quite true. The problem is that the trees that lived there were small and not very suited to shipbuilding. That was a huge problem for a settlement that still continued to keep contact with Europe.

Kinda like Easter Island, but not quite as bad...

But I was using NA and Europe in a loose sense, not as a way to pull in NA Indian culture although that's always an option. On one continent, you have "advanced" agrarian civilizations who have banished the monsters to the borders.

I understand. I was just pointing that out as a potential scenario. In Turtledove's scenario, the country was small, its population was homogenous.

But to continue the NA vs Europe thing...

In a country with a lot of space, and a widely dispersed non-homogenous, but still closely related populace, the Europeans would probably still win. Why? Because, despite assuming that the indigenous people have superior arcane/divine firepower, they are still deeply divided by old tribal conflicts. Improved magical ability merely puts them on a more equal footing with the technologically advanced, horse-riding Europeans. Unless they unify against the Europeans, the invaders will be able to practice what the Romans did so well: "Divide et emperum-" "Divide and conquer."

 

[occam]

Food production styles aren't the primary determinant of success. After all, the Aztecs were agrarian; indeed, so were most Native Americans, with the notable exception of Plains Indians who had recently turned to a nomadic lifestyle after the Spanish introduction of the horse.

As another example, consider the Mongols. A relatively small group of nomads engineered the destruction and/or conquest of the most advanced civilizations of their time. There was a lot more to that than food production, or technology, or population, or division of labor.

 

[Haltherrion]

In a country with a lot of space, and a widely dispersed non-homogenous, but still closely related populace, the Europeans would probably still win. Why? Because, despite assuming that the indigenous people have superior arcane/divine firepower, they are still deeply divided by old tribal conflicts. Improved magical ability merely puts them on a more equal footing with the technologically advanced, horse-riding Europeans. Unless they unify against the Europeans, the invaders will be able to practice what the Romans did so well: "Divide et emperum-" "Divide and conquer."

I wouldn't argue with that premise (and Europeans did play the native gorups off against each other) but my suggestion was to change the equation by pulling the dragons in to mix.

What if the HG humans are the red herrings and what the invaders are finding in this new land is really a collection of very power creatures? One such creature-type could be a large number of ancient wyrms who could certainly put a dent in any invasion and under some circumstances thwart it. You could keep the humans relevant by having them ally with/serve the dragons or some such.

Basically, I ask the question: what could change the predicted outcome? Would extremely powerful individual creatures like ancient dragons be enough? Certainly would make for an interesting conflict in any case.

Just a thought for a setting and a way to make it more interesting than the populous peoples overrun the natives

 

[jgbrowning]

Basically, I ask the question: what could change the predicted outcome? Would extremely powerful individual creatures like ancient dragons be enough? Certainly would make for an interesting conflict in any case.

Just a thought for a setting and a way to make it more interesting than the populous peoples overrun the natives

You can have the "new world" actually be the "old world" where the invading sentient races orginally came from (thousands of years ago), but of which they have all forgotten or you could have the natives be part of larger germ pool than the invaders (ie more total natives in the germ pool than total invaders in their germ pool). This could give you a very nasty germ pool into which the invaders would be ground up like meat. Ala sub-saharan Africa and East Asia.

The invaders could still "win," but it would be far from a North American continent effect.

joe b.