Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2 and the two dichotomies

[CapnZapp]

It's anti-Conan. I'm pro-Conan.

While i don't hate the talk show host, I prefer the Barbarian...

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Zapp I think the problem is, what you discuss as PF2e's 'objective' flaws are big parts of why I like it. For instance I enjoy magic items more here for the same reason I like them in 4e, and tried to overhaul that system in 5e.

In 5e, Magic Items are very 'buyer-beware' for the GM, where you have to be stingy with them or damage the integrity of your game. It doesn't just support games with low magic item counts, it usually feels like it demands them to some degree and punishes you for playing otherwise. It sucks enough that I was looking at a system that heavily nerfed magic items to make them a freer resource, which is also the most common community response on places like r/dndnext, to reward players with fun but useless magic items. We eventually didnt, and banned GWM/SS instead, but made Magic Items buyable via the XGTE point system, it was still broken as all get out, all this after I couldnt get a handle on a good pace to reward them.

In Pathfinder 2e, the fundamental bonuses are easily dispensed, bought, or houseruled away, and the system doesn't try and punish you for giving out lots of magic items. Strong magic items still feel fun and rewarding to use (after all, the +1 may be required, the extra fire damage or whatever in it is not) but you feel less like a mother trying to limit your child's candy intake. Because while magic items are fun in PF2e, the system RIMs them to keep them from being mechanically unhealthy, so you can be generous.

 

[kenada]

This is one of those “that’s the point” moments I described back on page 2 (regarding my experience with OSE). I don’t think there is a solution that will make all audiences happy. Their preferences are not just divergent but incompatible.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

This is one of those “that’s the point” moments I described back on page 2 (regarding my experience with OSE). I don’t think there is a solution that will make all audiences happy. Their preferences are not just divergent but incompatible.

Yup, I'm glad there are systems that work differently, but I'm also glad we finally got something like PF2e for people like me.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just making the point that ABP not only needlessly exposes you to manually calculating the bonus by still rolling the dice, and also that ABP negates most of the fun bonuses magic items currently provide, only leaving the cleaned-out carcass of the Treasure chapter behind.

I’ve read your updated response. Yeah, absolutely I can see your point with your problems with ABP.

So I’d ask (for the benefit of others who might feel the same way?) could you think of a simple hack to make either option (official or variant ) work for your group or would that involve too much?

For the Automatic Bonus Progression variant, replace...

Devastating Attacks
Source Gamemastery Guide pg. 196
At 4th level, your weapon and unarmed Strikes deal two damage dice instead of one. This increases to three at 12th level and to four at 19th level.

...with

Damage potency: Starting at 4th level, you gain a +4 potency bonus to damage rolls with all weapons and unarmed attacks. This increases to +8 at 12th level, and +12 at 19th level.


Then remove Skill Potency, Saving Throw Potency and Ability Apex entirely, leaving only Attack Potency, Damage Potency (as above), Defense Potency and Perception Potency. Ignore the following passage:

Remove all potency runes, striking runes, and resilient runes. Items that normally grant an item bonus to statistics or damage dice no longer do, other than the base item bonus to AC from armor. Apex items do not increase ability scores.

Meaning that items that grant item bonuses still do.

This way you can keep many items (skill bonus items in particular). You just don't need to hand out any magic weapons, meaning that when you still do they come across more like rewards than obligations. Even a humble Striking Longsword retains its usefulness far up the levels, since it adds damage above and beyond the baseline you get from damage potency.