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Pathfinder 2's Armor & A Preview of the Paladin!
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7746109" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In my contributions to this thread I am not trying to argue for how Paizo should present their PF2 paladin class; nor for what is "the best" presentation of such a class in a RPG. Those are questions that have to be answered using knowledge about player preferences, market trends, etc, and I don't have that knowledge.</p><p></p><p>I am talking about the archetype of the paladin. D&D didn't invent this archetype; nor did Poul Anderson. (Though clearly he was influential on the particular way D&D first operationalised it.)</p><p></p><p>The archetype goes back to romantic, idealised conceptions of mediaeval knighthood, and of kingship. In well-known English-language writing, King Arthur stories are a "historical" illustration of this tradition; Tolkien's LotR gives us a "modern" illustration. To say that Aragorn is a ranger and hence irrrelevant (eg [MENTION=6914290]Gammadoodler[/MENTION] upthread) is a mistake. Aragorn, as a character, clearly weaves together many strands of English/European storytelling: the noble who has to hid in the woods until he can reclaim his throne (as in some versions of Robin Hood); the human who has magical powers and foresight because he has dwelled in fairyland; the king who can heal with a touch; the heroic and chivalric battle captain (evoking Arthur, or romanticised versions of Richard the Lionheart) whose presence on the battlefield is worth many ordinary swords; and, perhaps most importantly, he understands the importance of hope (that's even his name!) and trust in providence.</p><p></p><p>This hope and trust means that the notion of a "no win" situation actually gets ruled out. The only way there can be "no win" is if the paladin's beliefs and ideals are themselves shown to be wrong - ie if it is shown, in fact, that there ultimately <em>is no justice in the world</em>. The humility that is part of this hope and trust is also important - and is part of the explanation for why paladins are not about "law reform". Because law and justice are, in this conception, not ultimately human endeavours.</p><p></p><p>Applying this to the idea of alignment and code in the D&D context, the paladin should be seeing, and revealing, the <em>good</em> in law whenever it comes up. And the paladin has no duty to subjugate his or her judgement to that of someone who lies about, manipulates or ruthlessly (mis-)applies the law. Aragorn's dealing with Beregond is a clear example of this.</p><p></p><p>Well, of course its <em>possible</em> to tell a story that comes out differently from LotR: we can tell a story in which Sauron blasts Aragorn's mind through the palantir; or in which Aragorn dies outside the Black Gates; or Frodo is indeed captured and the ring lost; or in which Aragorn, like Denethor, succumbs to hubris and despair and allows Beregond to be executed.</p><p></p><p>In the RPGing context, I think there are three main options:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">(1) The GM goes along with the paladin player's desire to play a paladin, and therefore presents a world in which it's clear that the pursuit of honour and justice and fidelity to law and tradition can be reconciled. (And this sort of GM will go along with imaginative reconciliations that the player puts forward, in the spirit of Aragorn.)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(2) The GM believes that the paladin's ideals are flawed, and therefore presents a world in which conflict between honour, justice and fidelity is inevitable. Further consequences of this may be that the paladin falls, or we invent workarounds for the code and alignment (as the PF2 preview does).</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">(3) The actual play of the game is oriented towards finding out whether or not the paladin's ideals are true or flawed.</p><p></p><p>Personally I prefer (3), and am currently playing a paladin in such a game. (Not D&D, though - Burning Wheel.)</p><p></p><p>For a fairly light or DL-ish sort of campaign, I think (1) is appropriate.</p><p></p><p>I personally think (2) is the pits for RPGing, and wouldn't want to play a paladin in such a game, but I'm sure others disagree.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7746109, member: 42582"] In my contributions to this thread I am not trying to argue for how Paizo should present their PF2 paladin class; nor for what is "the best" presentation of such a class in a RPG. Those are questions that have to be answered using knowledge about player preferences, market trends, etc, and I don't have that knowledge. I am talking about the archetype of the paladin. D&D didn't invent this archetype; nor did Poul Anderson. (Though clearly he was influential on the particular way D&D first operationalised it.) The archetype goes back to romantic, idealised conceptions of mediaeval knighthood, and of kingship. In well-known English-language writing, King Arthur stories are a "historical" illustration of this tradition; Tolkien's LotR gives us a "modern" illustration. To say that Aragorn is a ranger and hence irrrelevant (eg [MENTION=6914290]Gammadoodler[/MENTION] upthread) is a mistake. Aragorn, as a character, clearly weaves together many strands of English/European storytelling: the noble who has to hid in the woods until he can reclaim his throne (as in some versions of Robin Hood); the human who has magical powers and foresight because he has dwelled in fairyland; the king who can heal with a touch; the heroic and chivalric battle captain (evoking Arthur, or romanticised versions of Richard the Lionheart) whose presence on the battlefield is worth many ordinary swords; and, perhaps most importantly, he understands the importance of hope (that's even his name!) and trust in providence. This hope and trust means that the notion of a "no win" situation actually gets ruled out. The only way there can be "no win" is if the paladin's beliefs and ideals are themselves shown to be wrong - ie if it is shown, in fact, that there ultimately [I]is no justice in the world[/I]. The humility that is part of this hope and trust is also important - and is part of the explanation for why paladins are not about "law reform". Because law and justice are, in this conception, not ultimately human endeavours. Applying this to the idea of alignment and code in the D&D context, the paladin should be seeing, and revealing, the [I]good[/I] in law whenever it comes up. And the paladin has no duty to subjugate his or her judgement to that of someone who lies about, manipulates or ruthlessly (mis-)applies the law. Aragorn's dealing with Beregond is a clear example of this. Well, of course its [I]possible[/I] to tell a story that comes out differently from LotR: we can tell a story in which Sauron blasts Aragorn's mind through the palantir; or in which Aragorn dies outside the Black Gates; or Frodo is indeed captured and the ring lost; or in which Aragorn, like Denethor, succumbs to hubris and despair and allows Beregond to be executed. In the RPGing context, I think there are three main options: [indent](1) The GM goes along with the paladin player's desire to play a paladin, and therefore presents a world in which it's clear that the pursuit of honour and justice and fidelity to law and tradition can be reconciled. (And this sort of GM will go along with imaginative reconciliations that the player puts forward, in the spirit of Aragorn.) (2) The GM believes that the paladin's ideals are flawed, and therefore presents a world in which conflict between honour, justice and fidelity is inevitable. Further consequences of this may be that the paladin falls, or we invent workarounds for the code and alignment (as the PF2 preview does). (3) The actual play of the game is oriented towards finding out whether or not the paladin's ideals are true or flawed.[/indent] Personally I prefer (3), and am currently playing a paladin in such a game. (Not D&D, though - Burning Wheel.) For a fairly light or DL-ish sort of campaign, I think (1) is appropriate. I personally think (2) is the pits for RPGing, and wouldn't want to play a paladin in such a game, but I'm sure others disagree. [/QUOTE]
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