Pathfinder and 4e's love child, what I want in 5e

[GregoryOatmeal]

I would hope they would start with 3.5 and include as many of the better 4E innovations as possible without breaking 3.5 compatibility. For example
- Rules for converting 3.5 saves to 4E defenses
- Try to balance fighters/wizards and all classes without removing their unique feel.
- Add rituals
- Move to a point-buy version of 4E skills
- Remove random hit dice
- Page 42 damage tables are excellent
- Move away from CRs to a more logical XP system
I suspect all of these things could be done in a way that preserves the math of 3.5 and allows a DM to use resources such as adventures and monster books

The following are absolute deal-breakers for me
- Requiring internet subscriptions or computer tools
- Long combats. High hit points and healing surges are also a huge turn-off since they drive numbers up, prolong combat and break compatibility with the 3.5 products most gamers seem to own. I'll definitely take the 15-minute adventuring day
- 4E "gamist" feel. Barbarians shouldn't get a skill point in arcana every two levels. I tried for years to get my players to narrate their actions and explain why they have "daily powers" - they just didn't. Rather than saying what they're doing combat was always "Now I'm going to use my at-will ferocious strike power". I know that's not how you're supposed to play 4E but it just tends to happen that way for some reason.

 

[catsclaw227]

I've always appreciated [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50895]gamerprinter[/MENTION] contributions here on EnWorld. I agree oftentimes on general DM and player principles and gameplay issues.

But if you think the new edition won't integrate and/or add a dependency upon some e-gaming model, you are sadly lost in 1989.

I have been using my computer/laptop as a DM for a long time, either with my own self made spreadsheets in 2e to DM Genie in 3e to the DDI in 4e. This trend WILL NOT CHANGE. Even Paizo must have some kind of deal with Hero Lab or their fans are dedicated, but using a device for Dming and/or playing D&D is here to stay. Deal with it. Should I dismiss my Windows 7 PC for my old high school TRS 80 because it was "purer"? Give me a break.

I expect my next version of D&D to be fully integrated with electronic tools, VTTs, mapping engines and whatnot. I don't wear spectacles anymore because advanced lasik has given me 20/15 vison.

 

[Lanefan]

I've always appreciated [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] and [MENTION=50895]gamerprinter[/MENTION] contributions here on EnWorld.

Thanks.

But if you think the new edition won't integrate and/or add a dependency upon some e-gaming model, you are sadly lost in 1989.

1984, actually. But dependency on electronics for play kinda defeats the purpose of a pen'n'paper game, hm?

I have been using my computer/laptop as a DM for a long time, either with my own self made spreadsheets in 2e to DM Genie in 3e to the DDI in 4e. This trend WILL NOT CHANGE. Even Paizo must have some kind of deal with Hero Lab or their fans are dedicated, but using a device for Dming and/or playing D&D is here to stay.

At your table, maybe. Not at mine.

Don't get me wrong - I use my computer for various game-related things during the week (e.g. updating online logs, record-keeping, etc.) but I don't want computers or tablets or phones anywhere near the game table once the puck drops on game nights. My players are easily enough distracted as it is!

Deal with it. Should I dismiss my Windows 7 PC for my old high school TRS 80 because it was "purer"? Give me a break.

No, but neither has a place at my game table.

I expect my next version of D&D to be fully integrated with electronic tools, VTTs, mapping engines and whatnot. I don't wear spectacles anymore because advanced lasik has given me 20/15 vison.

Nice. My prescription is bad enough they can't do lasik on me...

Lan-"and dice-roller apps are absolutely banned"-efan

 

[Pentius]

[MENTION=14197]catsclaw227[/MENTION] I pretty much agree, except for one nuance. E-gaming tools, even for 4e, aren't required. I doubt they will be for 5e, and probably not for 6e, either. They'll be available, and probably widely used, but to make them required for play is a step that would alienate a lot of players. Much easier to engender player-created dependency, like we've seen with the character builder.

 

[gamerprinter]

I've always appreciated @Lanefan and @gamerprinter contributions here on EnWorld. I agree oftentimes on general DM and player principles and gameplay issues.

But if you think the new edition won't integrate and/or add a dependency upon some e-gaming model, you are sadly lost in 1989.

I have been using my computer/laptop as a DM for a long time, either with my own self made spreadsheets in 2e to DM Genie in 3e to the DDI in 4e. This trend WILL NOT CHANGE. Even Paizo must have some kind of deal with Hero Lab or their fans are dedicated, but using a device for Dming and/or playing D&D is here to stay. Deal with it. Should I dismiss my Windows 7 PC for my old high school TRS 80 because it was "purer"? Give me a break.

I expect my next version of D&D to be fully integrated with electronic tools, VTTs, mapping engines and whatnot. I don't wear spectacles anymore because advanced lasik has given me 20/15 vison.

I'm familiar with Virtual Terrain apps, I've downloaded and played with MapTool as well as Battlegrounds. I've designed maps and map objects specifically for use in VTT. I am a pro cartographer and I get that kind of work.

I am also not against the use of electronic gaming if that's what it takes to make a better gaming experience for you. Nothing wrong with that.

For me and my group only, we're a bit old school in how we play. We all live within the same county if not the same town, and have for over 20 years, so I game with the same group of friends I always have. I know this is not a luxury that everyone has - bearing job and life. So I'm lucky that way, and the luxuries of electronic aids are unnecessary for what I've been used to. I've been hand-prepping games for over 30 years - its what I'm used to.

I use a computer every day. I am very connected doing business online. So it's not alien technology for me. However, I don't feel I need any electronic components for my game. I enjoy the natural feel of doing it the old fashioned way. I actually enjoy game prep - second only to playing it. It's part of the creative exercise I enjoy most about gaming - designing the adventure.

While I can appreciate using online or offline tools to enhance my game. Too often I am designing brand new concepts that aren't in the game I play rather new mechanics, traits, feats, spells, magic items, etc. So I can't use an online tool for building stuff that currently doesn't exist in the game. Which is the primary reason such tools can't help me well.

But I do not discount using electronic tools to make your game better - use your chosen tool per taste. Whatever makes a better experience for you, please do.

 

[FinalSonicX]

Excellent list, I agree with many of your points. While I prefer 3.5/PF to 4e, I think there were some good things that could be learned from 4e moving forward.

As for apps and technology, I don't prohibit my players from using them so long as they aren't rude (it's mostly texting and cell phones that cause problems because a few people I play with lose focus very easily if they aren't presently engaged with something). However, I definitely do not use my laptop when gaming because I prefer to have space on the table. I would probably be much more strict about the use of tech if more of my players used laptops and ended up cluttering the table but thankfully they do not.

I think tablets are going to end up being the best technological aid for gaming in the future because it takes up much less space, it isn't as intrinsically distracting as a phone, and it's nice and mobile (it's almost equivalent to a book).

I use tech for prep mostly, but my biggest issues with apps and electronic aids is that they often do not support homebrew content, which is like 95% of my material. Thus, I do not benefit. It's faster and easier just to scribble things down on a notebook. The inflexibility of apps and such needs to be remedied and tablets need to be light, fast, and just as good as a pencil and paper before I will adopt a full technological approach (even then, books have a certain charm).

I will never accept a subscription model for content, especially if I do not own a physical copy. I especially hate what I hear and see from 4e errata and updates, I want my books to be usable forever and errata only when truly necessary. Unfortunately I got into Dragon and Dungeon way too late and they were cancelled shortly after I was considering subscribing. I wish they would bring back those magazines, I bought some off ebay from the 80s and 90s and they were amazing. That's subscription content I can get behind.

Otherwise, I expect to pay once for content. If they want recurring revenue from me, come out with cool settings, modules, and campaigns. I love that stuff.

 

[DaveMage]

IMO, electronic tools should enhance the game, not be a requirement to play it.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

4e, IMO, is a brand new game, and I don't mean a brand new version of D&D, as I don't see it resembling D&D much, rather as some new kind of RPG with some inference to what came before. If I really wanted to try a non-D&D game, there are plenty out there.

So when I wanted to go to the next inception of the game, Pathfinder seemed to be the outgrowth of 1e, 2e, 3x. Whereas 4e's only connection to the previous games as IP and logo, plus some reference to classes and other components of D&D. It was too far away from what I am familiar, thus not a comfortable change for me (at least this is what I perceive - it probably isn't the same perception as yours).

Not wanting to start a flamewar, but I want to share my different perception.

IMHO, Pathfinder is to 3.5 what AD&D 2nd was to AD&D (1st).

The jump from AD&D 2nd to 3e was much more steep, similar to the jump from 3.5 to 4e.

 

[jimmifett]

While I like me some PF, I'm not a fan of 3.x multiclassing. I much more prefer the concept of picking a core class, and draping prestiges/pp/ed over the core instead of replacing those levels of core. This adds my unqiue flavor to my character, but I'm still advancing whatever core I started with. The key point for me in 3.x/PF, I should only be able to drape another prestige AFTER i've finished all the levels in the current prestige. This prevents dipping a toe into a prestige for a level just for some features and getting broketastic pun-pun style PCs. If I want to take a prestige, I need to make a commitment to the class, otherwise, I could blow a feat to dabble in that prestige, albeit I would not get any where near as good of a deal.

I like the idea of dabling in another core via feat use, and I think creating a custom/combined core via the 4e hybrid system deserves merit, even if not always ideal. 4e Themes are also fantastic and a great way to add flavor to your PC.

 

[gamerprinter]

Not wanting to start a flamewar, but I want to share my different perception.

IMHO, Pathfinder is to 3.5 what AD&D 2nd was to AD&D (1st).

The jump from AD&D 2nd to 3e was much more steep, similar to the jump from 3.5 to 4e.

Why would we flame? Its all personal perceptions, and each may be unique. While 2e to 3x was easy for me, and to 4e not much, I'm sure there are many other possibilities. Let's stick with each of our own perceptions - that's perfectly agreeable to me!