Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Basic: What should it be?

[Cor_Malek]

TBH Red Box looks to me like a silly waste of money. There are two possible outcomes from buying it:

• You will not like it, and you've wasted 20 bucks
• You will like it, and need to buy core book - you've wasted 20 bucks

For $10 you can buy pdf of pathfinders core rulebook (which is like player handbook and a DMG), then just download bestiary previews.


For the price of Red Box you can have full versions of all books you need in digital version.

Alternatively: instead of bestiary, buy a module like Crown of Kobold King - you get plenty of monsters with statblocks, basicaly a microsetting and prerolled characters: just jump in with those characters, and whenever you don't know what something does - check in the rulebook.

In this case there are two possible outcomes as well:

• You don't like it and you've wasted $20
• You like it, and you're set with everything you'll need. Not everything you'll want (Paizo is addictive), but you don't have to pay twice for the same material.

And since the general idea is that one should like the game after trying it, it's waste money v save money.

For players who want to start ASAP, they can use pregenerated characters, which means they need to read: 12 pages of Chapter 1 - getting started, and then like 3-4 pages of class description if they really want to be prepared. Checking back to see what their ability does would most probably work just as well. 16 pages to start.
GM has to read a bit more: additional 14 of Chapter 8 (Combat), since it's safe to skip special attacks with new players, and 14 pages of Chapter 12 (Gamemastering). That's under 44 pages to read for GM - to put it into some perspective: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Little-Engine-Could-Original-Classic/dp/0448405202]this copy[/ame] of "Little Engine that could" is 48 pages long ;-) (hell, even the price is about the same oO ).

Some people* have trouble with the idea of skimming through a book in search of information they actually need, so maybe an additional page (or errata) containing quick-startup guide?

*and I'm among those, but I try to work on it ;-)

 

[IronWolf]

I do want to specify, that I mean 'box starter sets', not box sets in general - I've bought many setting box sets in 2e days: gray box FR, Menzobarrenzon, Birthright, Ravenloft - a couple actually...

Yeah, I knew you meant box starter sets and that was what I was referring to above. There have been box D&D sets labeled as Basic D&D all the way through the 80's and into the early 90's. Then in the mid-90's it was still a basic set, re-labeled to the Classic Dungeons & Dragons Game.

Now I'm not saying that a box starter set isn't a good idea, just the OP's point that its some necessity that will kill PF if they don't make a box starter set is going off a bit on the deep end.

I would not say it is a necessity, but I do think it is certainly a very good idea and could lower the hurdle to entry to RPGs and help make that gateway into the RPG world be into Pathfinder instead of into 4e. Why instead of 4e? Because even though I don't begrudge 4e players, it is after all a way to grow the RPG industry, I do like to see an influx of new players to Pathfinder as well to help make sure they are around for awhile.

And to claim the new 4e red box is an overwhelming success - I say again, it just came out, there's no measureable success. To say that current 4e users are buying it is no measuring stick either - what matters especially in this discussion is how many new players who've never played an RPG will use the red box to enter into the industry. That's the only measure of success to go by. If 4e starts producing something else than hardbacks, their customers will buy whatever else they offer - those aren't new customers gained just existing ones staying 'existing'.

Correct, I don't think we can say the basic set was an overwhelming success at this point. Anything we have is speculation.

A lot of us, and you see this sentiment echoed in people's stories of how they got their start in D&D, entered the RPG world through a box set. Not everyone certainly, but there are enough stories of "my uncle got this as a gift for me" or "my parents picked this up at Toys-R-Us for Christmas" as the start for people it would be nice to have something that fell into the Pathfinder world to use as this gateway. Certainly not all started this way, but it seems this is mentioned often enough that it should be considered.

 

[IronWolf]

TBH Red Box looks to me like a silly waste of money. There are two possible outcomes from buying it:

• You will not like it, and you've wasted 20 bucks
• You will like it, and need to buy core book - you've wasted 20 bucks

This can be said for about anything someone buys though. Sometimes you are happy with the purchase and sometimes you aren't. Granted if you end up liking the game then you do end up needing some more books, but if designed as Reynard and I have suggested then you've probably been able to get 3 to 6 months of play time out of it (more than some video games these days), now own a full set of dice and possibly a couple of minis.

For $10 you can buy pdf of pathfinders core rulebook (which is like player handbook and a DMG), then just download bestiary previews.

And I love the $10 pdf for the Pathfinder Core Rulebooks. But I just don't see someone picking up a PDF of a new game they've never tried as their start to the RPG world. And you are still missing some of the extras that would likely (hopefully) come in a Pathfinder Basic set.

I think the PDF works great for those of us that have played RPGs before. We have the basic concepts down, we know what to look for and what we need to know to start playing a new game. So the PDF is an easy, low hurdle way for us folks that have played RPGs for awhile to try out a new game.

But for people new to RPGs and d20 genre in general, PDFs seem a difficult way to learn from to me. People new to the game I suspect tend to find themselves flipping around in the book more to find the rules or descriptions they need. This just seems easier to do with a real book than a PDF.

The other issue with relying on the PDF is that it is more difficult to get out in front of people. You need physical books or box sets to be on the big bookstore bookshelves, at the toy store and at the local gaming shop. You can't do this with PDFs causing you to lose some exposure.

For the price of Red Box you can have full versions of all books you need in digital version.

If the Pathfinder Basics was akin to what Reynard and I seem to think are good starts, then even if you buy the full version of the PDF books you are still going to need some dice to play (included in Pathfinder Basics as proposed) and possibly some minis, though you could use other around the house objects as minis, but you're trying to hook people with this set.

Alternatively: instead of bestiary, buy a module like Crown of Kobold King - you get plenty of monsters with statblocks, basicaly a microsetting and prerolled characters: just jump in with those characters, and whenever you don't know what something does - check in the rulebook.

This sounds like a high hurdle for entry. I've been gathering Pathfinder books over the past several months and did not know that Crown of the Kobold King has these things in it in such a manner. How is a person new to RPGs supposed to know to pick up this module?

In this case there are two possible outcomes as well:

• You don't like it and you've wasted $20
• You like it, and you're set with everything you'll need. Not everything you'll want (Paizo is addictive), but you don't have to pay twice for the same material.

And since the general idea is that one should like the game after trying it, it's waste money v save money.

I did have in my list of things to include in the Pathfinder Basic set a coupon that goes towards the purchase of the core rulebooks, just to help defray this cost a bit. The waste money thing is something people encounter everyday as they decide what to buy and what not to buy. If you like the game, if you get a Pathfinder Basic set that I have suggested you will have likely had 3 to 6 months of play time out of it, hardly wasted money - especially given that a good number of video games cost $50 to $60 and can be beat in far less time.

Some people* have trouble with the idea of skimming through a book in search of information they actually need, so maybe an additional page (or errata) containing quick-startup guide?

I think the issue is that some people are intimidated by a large rulebook. And when they are new to the game they don't know what information they really need up front so feel more pressure to read and understand the whole book.

Now you or I, probably having played RPG games of some flavor can likely pick up a brand new game system and realize we just need to look at a few specific sections to get started and then fill in the rest as we go. I think that is attributed to experience though and not something someone new to RPGs is going to know.

 

[Jor-El]

I think a PF Basic would be a great way to introduce new folks to the hobby, and a good way to teach someone the basics before you stick a 500 page rulebook in front of them.

Even if it doesn't hook new people into the core game, its bound to be a success as a one-shot for lots of people that would enjoy the occasional, casual play.

I guess you have to really balance the content based on the size and price point, but maybe up to 5 levels, only include the four classic character classes (Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard), and maybe only include a few of the races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling). Pare down the feat list, maybe even simplify the skill list a bit, and trim the spell lists by about half.

Include a small DM's booklet with an intro adventure, some sample traps and hazards, and a collection of classic monsters, and viola! A few weekends or summer nights of adventure that some imaginative kids will expand on their own, and eventually find themselves pulled to the dark, mysterious tome that is the PF Core Rulebook.

 

[DragonLancer]

You don't need a Pathfinder basic as the game as it stands is fine.

 

[IronWolf]

You don't need a Pathfinder basic as the game as it stands is fine.

I agree the Pathfinder game is great.

The idea of a boxed set though is to lower the bar to entry and provide a game in a box that comes with everything you need to get started to play through levels 1 to 3-5ish, while possibly reducing the initial options (not changing the rules, just reducing the options) to make learning the system not seem like an overwhelming task to someone new to RPGs.

 

[DragonLancer]

I agree the Pathfinder game is great.

The idea of a boxed set though is to lower the bar to entry and provide a game in a box that comes with everything you need to get started to play through levels 1 to 3-5ish, while possibly reducing the initial options (not changing the rules, just reducing the options) to make learning the system not seem like an overwhelming task to someone new to RPGs.

True but then it becomes a money making excuse, because they will still need to fork out for the full book after reaching level 3-ish. What I would do is include a small digest size but half dozen page booklet inside the front cover with the old "read me first" bit and do it that way.

 

[Cor_Malek]

This can be said for about anything someone buys though. Sometimes you are happy with the purchase and sometimes you aren't. Granted if you end up liking the game then you do end up needing some more books, but if designed as Reynard and I have suggested then you've probably been able to get 3 to 6 months of play time out of it (more than some video games these days), now own a full set of dice and possibly a couple of minis.
(...)
If the Pathfinder Basics was akin to what Reynard and I seem to think are good starts, then even if you buy the full version of the PDF books you are still going to need some dice to play (included in Pathfinder Basics as proposed) and possibly some minis, though you could use other around the house objects as minis, but you're trying to hook people with this set.

Huh, I sort of skipped over dices and minis, and those are actually a huge thing IMO, especially for someone who orders their stuff online (even with digital book, you'll need dice, and pay for their shipping).

As to one v other, the point is: both outcomes mean loosing 20 bucks regardless of whether one likes it or not. Buying full means higher risk, but grants one positive outcome.

The other issue with relying on the PDF is that it is more difficult to get out in front of people. You need physical books or box sets to be on the big bookstore bookshelves, at the toy store and at the local gaming shop. You can't do this with PDFs causing you to lose some exposure.

Um, tbh I omissed one point there, and it might come up for people who are weighting pro's and cons in similar way to me: I'd only ever consider printed version of PF core book, as otherwise I dump one of it's biggest pluses - graphical layout.

This sounds like a high hurdle for entry. I've been gathering Pathfinder books over the past several months and did not know that Crown of the Kobold King has these things in it in such a manner. How is a person new to RPGs supposed to know to pick up this module?

Very true, just as it might be hard for someone to extrapolate relevant information to start in manner I described earlier. I kind of suck at being able to tell what would and what would not be obvious to others, it comes up every now and then

I did have in my list of things to include in the Pathfinder Basic set a coupon that goes towards the purchase of the core rulebooks, just to help defray this cost a bit.

How about discount pdf's, ie 2x $5, so that someone could pick up full bestiary and core for price of one, and it might be less detrimental to profits than a single free pdf.
If so, the startup could be set in such a way, that it'd contain handy stuff, the kind of things you need to skip the book through in the heat of the moment. For things like item creation you need a longer while anyway.

I think the issue is that some people are intimidated by a large rulebook. And when they are new to the game they don't know what information they really need up front so feel more pressure to read and understand the whole book.

Now you or I, probably having played RPG games of some flavor can likely pick up a brand new game system and realize we just need to look at a few specific sections to get started and then fill in the rest as we go. I think that is attributed to experience though and not something someone new to RPGs is going to know.

Very true. However, it's probably a lot deeper than that. It's not that they're intimidated, or that it's limited to RPG rulebooks - often it's that people are less and less able to use big books. Literally get worse at it. It's like reading whole dictionary every time one wants to check what "exorbitance" means. A player that wants to play an elven warrior doesn't need to read through other classes, spell list etc. Even a wizard can learn it as he goes.
And for some, like <16 year old , it might be the case, that they didn't actually need to learn this yet, if all they read was belletristic and schoolbooks, where you are actually supposed to read the whole thing. I know plenty of people who got through high school (with great grades) without this skill. I feel that adding a quick "what you need to go" chapter/errata addendum (like a monochromatic printout on bad paper) would help a lot of people to quickly start playing while using the full rulebook.
To ease the conversion from startup kit to full thing, it might be a good idea to have annotations as to where one might find more on given subject (in similar way it's done in modules when describing NPC's/monsters: "here's what you need to know, and here's a book and page that describe it". Preferably with icons instead of / with acronyms.

if you get a Pathfinder Basic set that I have suggested you will have likely had 3 to 6 months of play time out of it, hardly wasted money - especially given that a good number of video games cost $50 to $60 and can be beat in far less time.

It's the kind of comparison argument that wins my heart, honestly. It's like with Modern Warfare - it might be a great game with good physics and licenses that cost a lot + multiplayer support, but all I can think of is: $60 for 4 hours singleplayer...

For all it's worth, I guess it might be a bit like with Gran Turismo Prologue ;-)

Ah! As to bonus gear:

• consider printouts of tokens instead of minis, kinda like what was in Dragon a long time ago: full pages with tokens to cut out, where you use existing graphics from modules and bestiary, and then just zoom in and add frame. It'd allow to add more stuff for less, but then again: minis can be used as a collectible + once you have some you might want more.
• Please - put the dices in some kind of textile bag instead of cellophane wrap - it's one of those things that get handy when you start playing and can't easily replace lost dice.
• If you'll be packaging it in a hard box - consider a lid and bottom kind of box as opposed to one opened at the top. The former can be used to roll dice inside without having them roll off the table. If layout for the box is done right, you might even advertise it as bonus content ;-) (what I mean: this, not this).

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

True but then it becomes a money making excuse . . .

Well, and isn't Paizo in the business of making money? Don't get me wrong - they love what they do, and I love what they do, but they gotta make money to stay in business. And them staying in business is good for me, 'cause then I get continued support for the hobby I love.

Part of that is getting fresh new faces into the game. Folks spend their moolah on all kinds of stuff, and when it comes down to it none of this is essential - it's leisure activity. So if a boxed set will get new faces in - and I was introduced to the game by the old Blue Box basic set and the original Village of Hommlet - then let 'em spend their money!

 

[DaveMage]

I see no need for a basic game product.

Instead, a free quick-start rules kit should be available on the Paizo website.

"Start playing in 5 minutes."

Make it simple so that the DM doesn't have to read the scenario in advance, but can just referee on the go.


They could also offer a $9.99 "Player's Kit" with dice, graph paper, and quick rules summary pages (like SORD).