Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Basic: What should it be?

[DragonLancer]

Well, and isn't Paizo in the business of making money? Don't get me wrong - they love what they do, and I love what they do, but they gotta make money to stay in business. And them staying in business is good for me, 'cause then I get continued support for the hobby I love.

Part of that is getting fresh new faces into the game. Folks spend their moolah on all kinds of stuff, and when it comes down to it none of this is essential - it's leisure activity. So if a boxed set will get new faces in - and I was introduced to the game by the old Blue Box basic set and the original Village of Hommlet - then let 'em spend their money!

Everyone is in the business of making money, goes without saying. But I don't agree with a company publishing one thing (say a basic set) and then getting you to fork out even more for the rest (full rules). You can talk about the old basic D&D and 1st ed AD&D but they were too seperate games, where as this would be about two versions of the same game. If a publisher wants to stay then they need to have good product and support it well. Paizo does both.

 

[IronWolf]

Instead, a free quick-start rules kit should be available on the Paizo website.

"Start playing in 5 minutes."

I can't put the quick-start PDF on a shelf in a bookstore or local gaming shop. I can't very well pass off a PDF gift to nieces and nephews on their birthday or holiday or wrap a print out of these rules and feel very good about my gift.

If I have a Pathfinder Basics box set at a reasonable price point I can buy several and pass them out as gifts to potential players (nieces, nephews, friends of IronPup's birthday parties, etc). And now I have a complete game in a box that has potential to entertain for three to six months of play time.

They could also offer a $9.99 "Player's Kit" with dice, graph paper, and quick rules summary pages (like SORD).

You're almost to a Pathfinder Basic set here, just beef up the rule book a bit to support the early levels and cut down the spell lists and feat lists and we'd have it!

 

[Reynard]

I see no need for a basic game product.

Instead, a free quick-start rules kit should be available on the Paizo website.

"Start playing in 5 minutes."

Make it simple so that the DM doesn't have to read the scenario in advance, but can just referee on the go.

They could also offer a $9.99 "Player's Kit" with dice, graph paper, and quick rules summary pages (like SORD).

If the potential customer, who is only marginally aware of RPGs in the first place, has to navigate your website to download your introductory product, you have already obviated the whole point of the product.

 

[IronWolf]

But I don't agree with a company publishing one thing (say a basic set) and then getting you to fork out even more for the rest (full rules).

I would hope Paizo would be up front about it. That this Pathfinder Basic is a starter set, everything you need to buy this box, take it home, read some rules and start rolling the dice and moving the tokens/minis on a map we provide. This will get you into the early levels of the game.

This would be for the folks that are curious about what it is all about, or for gifts to introduce new players who might not have considered RPGs before or been too intimidated of the big hardback books. People would certainly have the choice of either starting their path in Pathfinder gaming with either the Pathfinder Basic set or know they are going to play this game and I want the full set of rulebooks now.

You can talk about the old basic D&D and 1st ed AD&D but they were too seperate games, where as this would be about two versions of the same game. If a publisher wants to stay then they need to have good product and support it well. Paizo does both.

Quite true. But I remember going on to buy the Expert set, then the Master set, Companion rules, Master and even the Immortals back then. I don't remember feeling disenfranchised, but I was young then - possibly not looking at money quite the same way. And then during the course of all that, started gathering up all the AD&D books.

And more recently I used a D&D 3.5 Basic Set to intro my son to gaming. The ruleset was more limited but used the same mechanics as D&D 3.5. It worked great for introducing IronPup to the game. We popped the box open, ogled the minis, gave the dice to IronPup and within twenty minutes was able to start playing. We had great time! The price was right as well if I recall.

Now in that case I already had a boat load of D&D 3.5 stuff, but if I hadn't I don't think I would have felt like I wasted my money on the Basic set only to need to move on to get the full PHB, DMG and MM to continue playing. Rather the basic set was well worth the minimal investment to act as a stepping stone to the big books. Plus we got some map tiles, minis and dice out of the deal.

 

[pawsplay]

What you would be paying for would be the introductory text. Getting some dice and tokens out of the deal should help with the sting.

I'd do it this way:
- Quick start rules
- Iconic characters, with cardboard counters
- Cardboard monsters counters (decent ones, not tiny little headshots on lightweight paper)
- Petite bestiary, including a variety of CR 1/4 to CR 5 threats.
- A set of dice
- Expanded rulebook, gives advancement up to 3rd level, including about thirty feats and a fraction of the current 1st and 2nd level spell lists, plus a small magic item list

I'd go for attractive but inexpensive presentation. The kiddies will probably wear out the set before long and upgrade to the full rulebook,and it would be a bonus for collectors if the booklets are made fairly expendable in presentation. Comic book print or simple white paper spring to mind.

 

[Sylrae]

What you would be paying for would be the introductory text. Getting some dice and tokens out of the deal should help with the sting.

I'd do it this way:
- Quick start rules
- Iconic characters, with cardboard counters
- Cardboard monsters counters (decent ones, not tiny little headshots on lightweight paper)
- Petite bestiary, including a variety of CR 1/4 to CR 5 threats.
- A set of dice
- Expanded rulebook, gives advancement up to 3rd level, including about thirty feats and a fraction of the current 1st and 2nd level spell lists, plus a small magic item list

I'd go for attractive but inexpensive presentation. The kiddies will probably wear out the set before long and upgrade to the full rulebook,and it would be a bonus for collectors if the booklets are made fairly expendable in presentation. Comic book print or simple white paper spring to mind.

I like these Ideas.
I'd have more than 4 classes though. I'd say all the core, and maybe even the APG Classes (They're the unique paizo classes, afterall), but only the first couple levels. I'm not sure 3 is enough. I was thinking 5 or 6.
If they go with 6, it could double as the Pathfinder e6 book I've seen people saying they want/the true20PFRPG I've heard people talking about wanting.

I like the cheap print Idea. I think in addition to the quickstart rules, they should cover the basic e6 or e5 rules in another booklet. Obviously all of these can be in 3 simple paper booklets, in black and white. maybe with nice color covers. Held together with a staple like a comic book or some of the thinner pf books.

As for collectors, use the same dimensions as a comic book, instead of the standard RPG book size. This way the collector types can bag and board the books.

Would I use the book? Not in my weekly games. I could see myself running it at conventions to introduce new players, and I can see myself giving them out as gifts. I'd also buy it and put it on my shelf.

I remember playing TSR's Dragon Strike when I was a kid. It was my favorite board game. I even remember I really liked the little cheesy VHS Video that came with it.

I'd love to have a "Basic Pathfinder" to eventually use to introduce my kids to RPGs (when I have kids). That would rock.

A streamlined low level PFRPG would be great for:
- People New to the Hobby
- Kids new to the hobby
- e5, e6, or e8 fans.
- True20 and other rules-light fans.

 

[IronWolf]

I'd go for attractive but inexpensive presentation. The kiddies will probably wear out the set before long and upgrade to the full rulebook,and it would be a bonus for collectors if the booklets are made fairly expendable in presentation. Comic book print or simple white paper spring to mind.

I don't know I think I would like to see cardstock covers for the manuals inside like the older boxed sets. The flimsy rulebooks that came with the 3.5 Basic set and what looks like will be in the 4e set just don't have a good feel for them.

They have to keep the price down though, so if this is they it would need to be, then I guess it is the way it needs to be.

I'd have more than 4 classes though. I'd say all the core, and maybe even the APG Classes (They're the unique paizo classes, afterall)...

The box set needs to be simple and not inundate a new player with too many options right off the bat. I tend to agree with the limited class and race selection just to make sure things stay simple. Plenty of time to branch out later if the new player gets hooked.

I'd love to have a "Basic Pathfinder" to eventually use to introduce my kids to RPGs (when I have kids). That would rock.

Yep, I would love to give one to IronPup. I've already taught him to play, but I think he's still like a Basic set, it would make it easier for him to teach his own friends with one. I can see it getting toted to school in a backpack now!

 

[Reynard]

I don't know I think I would like to see cardstock covers for the manuals inside like the older boxed sets. The flimsy rulebooks that came with the 3.5 Basic set and what looks like will be in the 4e set just don't have a good feel for them.

They have to keep the price down though, so if this is they it would need to be, then I guess it is the way it needs to be.

A cardstock or similarly resilient cover would be needed as the whole point is that it is meant to be *played* -- not just once or twice, but regularly for a significant amount of time. It needs to withstand soda, cheetos and regular page flipping by 12 year olds for some number of months. Any counters included do too, and versatile "map tiles" would make a great addition as well.

As to what to include options wise, I'm torn. It needs to be simple, but it also needs to be deep. My son is almost 7 and while I am holding off until he is 8 before i introduce him to D&D (aka Pathfinder), I can already see how he likes to find the hidden or non obvious tools within a game.

He absolutely hated little kid games like Candyland. I was even a little depressed about it. I love games. I even design games. My son hates games? Gah! But then they introduced him to Uno at day care/pre-school and he loved it. That's when I got it -- he hated purely random games. When we got him the Wii, it went even farther. I could see him figuring out the games. Not cheating exactly, but finding the ways to game the game. New Super Mario Brothers Wii is his current favorite -- he finds new tricks and secrets all the time, gets better and keeps playing.

My point is, with an RPG the same ability to "go deeper" needs to be there for kids (or, at least, kids like my son). Sometimes "system mastery" and "player skill" get thrown around in a negative context, but for kids I think these things are powerful draws and retainers. So while Pathfinder Basic should allow for very simplistic "builds" and combat options, it should also provide more sophisticated ones. Kids love "gaming the system". Why else would we call munchkins munchkins?

Whatever the design philosophy behind such a product might turn out to be, were it ever to be made, one key would be *not* to design it for old, nostalgic farts like me. I want to want it, to have it warm the BECM cockles of my heart. But what it needs to be is *my* kids' BECM.

 

[Sylrae]

The box set needs to be simple and not inundate a new player with too many options right off the bat. I tend to agree with the limited class and race selection just to make sure things stay simple. Plenty of time to branch out later if the new player gets hooked.

I suppose. Personally I'm thinking a booklet for each class (so each player only has to reference their own booklet for their abilities) with all of the "choices" pre-chosen as they gain levels. They would play as the Iconics, as opposed to making their own characters. They'd have character traits, but pre-chosen, and just given to them at l 1.

A cardstock or similarly resilient cover would be needed as the whole point is that it is meant to be *played* -- not just once or twice, but regularly for a significant amount of time. It needs to withstand soda, cheetos and regular page flipping by 12 year olds for some number of months. Any counters included do too, and versatile "map tiles" would make a great addition as well.

Very True

Whatever the design philosophy behind such a product might turn out to be, were it ever to be made, one key would be *not* to design it for old, nostalgic farts like me. I want to want it, to have it warm the BECM cockles of my heart. But what it needs to be is *my* kids' BECM.

I like the idea of getting more kids/young teens into RPGs.

 

[pawsplay]

Did anyne ever see the Two Worlds d20 game? It was a tiny little D&D variant, stripped down to the very essentials. The core game can get very small if you want it to be!

Check it out.