Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Epic level conventions?

[fireinthedust]

So what are the possibilities for Epic-level play in Pathfinder? Are there existing conventions of House rules, or does one simply apply the Epic-level rules from the Epic Level Handbook?

Is there a published set, or are they working on them?

 

[Kvantum]

There just aren't enough of us fans of Epic for it to be profitable for Paizo to publish them anytime soon. (The higher level issues of Dungeon APs and Pathfinder cycles are always the lowest selling ones.)

We might, tenatively, get Epic level rules in 2012. James Jacobs kinda likes the idea of them, from what can be gathered from different messageboard posts, but the problem right now lies in how to actually make them work and still somehow make the book actually profitable. IIRC, the idea is to cap out at 36th level, ala original D&D's Master rules set (the "M" in BECMI D&D, the I being Immortals rules).

 

[gamerprinter]

Page 406-407 of the Core Rules has some rules regarding 'Beyond 20th level'.

The best way, they suggest is have a hard limit of 20 levels for single class and take one or more prestige classes, using all its abilities as you'd normally gain.

For XP beyond 20th, just double the cost to level up from the previous one each time.

All acquisition of feats, powers, Sneak Attack, Smite, Slow Fall, stat gain, HP, saving throws, etc. continue as if there is no defined end. You gain new spell slots every odd level as a caster, but no Epic spells, rather slots to use Meta-magic feats on higher level spells. You can add bonus spells cast per level as well, as per normal spell progression.

This in no way guarantees balance or fun play, and know that saving throws become unwieldy at higher levels, but this is a loose guide for those groups who don't wish to use 3x OGC Epic rules, or other 3pp epic rules.

GP

 

[Thanael]

Dicefreaks will perhaps/probably come up with an Epic PF conversion sometime in the future as PF is now the "Dicefreaks official" ruleset.

Why not ask in their forums?: Dicefreaks d20 Community - Index page I believe someone already broached the subject but i can't find it atm.

Incidently Dicefreaks always proposed a hard level cap for mortals, though a bit higher than 36 (at 45).

 

[Kvantum]

Dicefreaks will perhaps/probably come up with an Epic PF conversion sometime in the future as PF is now the "Dicefreaks official" ruleset.

I have way more faith in a vague, non-specific time period from Paizo than I do from DiceFreaks. (I'd be astounded if D*F gets even an Alpha version released before Paizo gets their final. How many years has their Abyss project been in development, exactly?)

 

[fireinthedust]

Dicefreaks: I found Their Epic Level discussion thread here, and it's interesting stuff: really asking tough questions about higher level numbers.

Gameprinter: yes, I'm aware of that section; basically that the designers were still working on perfecting the Epic system, as best the could.

thus my question: has there been much progress on this?


I remember there being a Goodman Games epic-level module. I wanted to try it out, actually, see how it works.

I'm surprised that Paizo didn't sell out those epic issues. I get that no one plays Epic, or rather than in-house games rarely reach that high level. The problem being that most groups give up after I'd say a few levels with the same PCs. Most books are written about 6th-level-is-epic characters, and movies also. I'm a big fan of E6 pathfinder for a reason (and starting my own E6 game soon, in RL).

I get that Epic is its own challenge: the game worlds I make can't handle that high level of character as normal, and any challenges they might face would be one-off battles that would literally destroy all the work I've ever done. One would have to have a world of superheroes, literally, to have true Epic-level challenges; when you're at that point, one could just play Mutants & Masterminds DC Adventures, which would save you a lot of crunch work sifting through monster manuals and supplements to make exactly what you're looking for.

But the point is, within the Pfrpg, what is the potential?


I'll keep reading, as I'd like to know.

 

[gamerprinter]

Dicefreaks: I found Their Epic Level discussion thread here, and it's interesting stuff: really asking tough questions about higher level numbers.

Gameprinter: yes, I'm aware of that section; basically that the designers were still working on perfecting the Epic system, as best the could.

thus my question: has there been much progress on this?


I remember there being a Goodman Games epic-level module. I wanted to try it out, actually, see how it works.

I'm surprised that Paizo didn't sell out those epic issues. I get that no one plays Epic, or rather than in-house games rarely reach that high level. The problem being that most groups give up after I'd say a few levels with the same PCs. Most books are written about 6th-level-is-epic characters, and movies also. I'm a big fan of E6 pathfinder for a reason (and starting my own E6 game soon, in RL).

I get that Epic is its own challenge: the game worlds I make can't handle that high level of character as normal, and any challenges they might face would be one-off battles that would literally destroy all the work I've ever done. One would have to have a world of superheroes, literally, to have true Epic-level challenges; when you're at that point, one could just play Mutants & Masterminds DC Adventures, which would save you a lot of crunch work sifting through monster manuals and supplements to make exactly what you're looking for.

But the point is, within the Pfrpg, what is the potential?


I'll keep reading, as I'd like to know.

I've run some epic level play in both 3x and Pathfinder (not very high epic for PF, about 24th level so far), but it depends on the kind of game you run. Our players are now traveling the astral plane searching for big threats vs. the planes and saving the universe. Its kind of turned into a 'space game', where the players are too powerful for their home world, so now are adventuring across the multi-verse - they aren't destroying any worlds.

It depends on your game and setting I guess, but I've seen no real problems.

Of course being used to 3x Epic rules, the players want Epic Feats and Epic Spells and I'm not willing to grant them that - personally I hate Epic, but I will run the game the players want.

GP

 

[James Jacobs]

I would actually LOVE to do an Epic level expansion to Pathfinder. It's a tricky subject, though, and not only because only a fraction of the people who buy a game will buy an epic level game (I'm not convinced that fraction is as small as some folks suspect, but it's certainly a fraction of the total who would buy a book that expands the base game, so that's still a consideration.)

We don't have plans to do one this year or next year for sure. Beyond that... who can say. I keep trying to get the ball rolling there, in any event...

 

[gamerprinter]

Really, after looking at page 406-407 of the Core rules - only two things are missing that could make it more Epic.

1. Epic Feats - while the existing epic feats can be hit or miss, some could be over-powered, so you need to make a tighter more balanced selection, but I think its critical to an Epic game to allow some epic feats. This would greatly boost the playability and desire to be epic at all.

2. Epic Spells - the concept in the Epic handbook is pretty much broken, so some kind of spell powers should be available that sit outside the general spell list.

If you come up with solutions for that, then the existing "going beyond 20th" could work well.

GP

 

[Kaiyanwang]

(I'm not convinced that fraction is as small as some folks suspect, but it's certainly a fraction of the total who would buy a book that expands the base game, so that's still a consideration.)

I state beforehand that I loved to play Epic in 3.5 up to level 40, even if I recognize the various flaws..

I wonder if, among the fans, people are shy toward epic regardless the epic level sourcebook, or because they had a bad experience with 3.5.

In the second case, a good Epic Level Handbook could (I'm talking for my own sake here ) attract more people to this kind of play.

For sure, if Paizo creates an ELH, I hope that it comes later, because in my opinion the 3.0 one came too early and didn't fit well with later rules. Sadly, for causes discussed above, WoTC didn't updated it to an "Expanded" edition like the Psionics rules.