Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Epic level conventions?

[fireinthedust]

JJ: I wonder if the issue is the concept of the game. What are you going to pitch to people to get them to buy an actual Epic game?

If I was doing it, frankly, I'd do one of the perfect-bound books you folks do for settings like Osirion. Market to the people who would by a fraction of a campaign setting and love it. That's your numbers, do the book-math.

OR make it a part of an APG book, one that has base classes already, that you know people are going to buy. Less risk, but if there's a regular book planned for either new rules or new setting material, why not?

Second: the big issue I have is the 50/50 rule is right out. How to account for it? And conceptually, it's the opposite of the E6 setting, which the Bestiary is designed for already (Ie: Dragons are what you expect them to be without needing the advanced template *always*, and you never need to adjust monster stats because they're already what you want; the only issue is customizing).

The concept is the opposite end of the spectrum because the book assumes E6, in a way. A hard wall to climb is DC20. You can make that so easily in E6. By E20+, there isn't a wall they can't climb, really. When you go beyond E6, so that climbing a wall becomes flying 30 ft over a wall, you're going outside the structure of the 1-20 setting implied by the Bestiary.

I think if you designed a setting for an epic game, that would help. It would need to be compelling, and it would need to somehow incorporate the 50/50 rule. Like the above Space game, or something like it. You'd need something other than the traditional D&D or even Pathfinder setting, because that's designed for a 1-20 system. It assumes that you can fit all the concepts for threats (ie: dragons, trolls, giants, medusa, titans, etc.) into it already, and has already fitted them in.

An epic setting... I guess it'd need to be between worlds and in many hostile settings, so all the magic the players need would be, well, needed.

But, and here's a devil's advocate: is the lure of Epic play there because the people playing it are rules-savy?

I know I'm drawn to it because of the theory: could you do it? Also, if I actually had a PC who was that powerful, and could use all the options I'd purchased in 3.x and PF, what could I do with that?

I think the Epic crowd are mostly DMs.

 

[fireinthedust]

Okay, enough setting questions:

Rules-structure wise, what do we have the option of doing with Epic? (feel free to add, etc. to this list)

1) Continuous advancement: you go up levels to a theoretically infinite level. 100+ level. What folks assume Epic means.

2) Feat advancement: like the E6 game, but at 20th (or whatever): you advance with a feat, but you're still 20th level

3) Fixed level cap: You can make it to level 30, 40, 45, 50, etc. Once you're there, you're there. That's it, no more new levels. Basically you've just done the 20th level game, but now you're a higher level than that. Mixed classes or not, you can't go past the Xth character level.

4) Gestalt advancement: You reach the peak in one class, so start advancing in other classes. You replace any stats that are lower with one class with the other class' stats.
Example: If you're a 20th Wizard and want to go Fighter, you advance your BAB and HP. If you're a 20th Fighter and you want to go Ranger, you don't add BAB beyond the +20 point, but things like Skill Ranks would go up (ie: your 1st level 2+int ranks would get 4 more ranks for the Ranger's total of 6/level). This would be similar to 2e Dual-classing for humans, I think. You'd need to keep track of every single level's points for skills/hp, etc.
In theory eventually every character could be maxed out in every ability for every class... but that's a heck of a lot of gaming!

I think that covers it, right? Anything else would be variations on these themes.


That reminds me of Minions of Mirth. Is an online game, good chunk of which is free.

Would Pathfinder Epic be better if there what a character builder? One that does the math for epic games would be a great help. Like in WoW or MoM, the computer does a lot of work. This lets hardcore players enjoy their massive stats without sitting next to a candle flame scratching out and correcting stats that are more vast than usual.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

First, let me say that I'm glad that Paizo is continuing to develop 3.x through the Pathfinder RPG. I'm very excited about this because I love 3.x.

As to Epic rules... I've never played in a 3.x game that's gotten to really high levels, but after reading the threads on Ryan Stoughton's E6 and some articles by The Alexandrian (especially this one), I think what high level Pathfinder needs in order to develop a larger fan base for epic level play (past 20th level) is a compelling set of Pathfinder fiction stories that really describe Epic Level Play post 20th level in an entertaining way. I think that the Alexandrian's point is that most of us aren't familiar with heroes that really exceed 5th level in Pathfinder terms, let alone 20th. I know I'm not and I've played the World's Most Popular Role-Playing Game since about 1984 (in one incarnation or another).

So, James or Jason (or anyone else at Paizo that may work on an Epic Level book), I think what many of us need are stories that showcase post 20th level play to give us a picture of what 20th level plus characters are like as well as what types of quests they undertake. And, I think there might be a spot for such stories in the Pathfinder Tales line. Kinda how the Dragonlance Chronicles went right along with the DL AD&D modules.

That said, though, I'm perfectly happy without a post 20th level book, right now, and I'm really looking forward to Ultimate Magic and its martial counterpart. The Magus playtest really inspired me to look further into Pathfinder. Can't wait to see the final version of the Magus.

 

[Drathir]

I've always liked the idea of epic level play but unless u alter a world or make your own the only world that has epic lvl characters as a... well its not exactly common but they're not rare, is... Faerun i think? i dont know about Eberron from 3x i never really looked into it 'cause we usually "made" our own worlds. But with enemies in Faerun like Tiamats chosen (a cr 40 fiendish great wyrm red with dragon class lvls) and npcs like elminster you could always try transfering/moding Faerun to fit ur epic level needs, although i'd rather see a Paizo developed rules and regulations than do that.

 

[Dyir]

For me, Epic level D&D really clicked when I got into Exalted: the point isn't so much challenging the player characters, as it is creating meaningful consequences for what they do. As mentioned upthread, Epic level characters can climb up any wall, so rather than trying to prevent this, and Epic-level game should just assume that walls are no longer meaningful obstacles for such characters and what that means to the setting. If Pathfinder does create an Epic-level book (and I hope they do), it would be nice to see at least some thoughts in this direction, instead of just including "super" versions of pre-Epic stuff (like "super"-walls that only Epic-level characters can climb!).

 

[paradox42]

Regarding settings: is SHARK still around on ENWorld these days? I remember he'd specifically developed his setting with Epic conflicts in mind, with huge armies clashing over enormous territories, and I think he specifically had NPCs of 50th level or more in his world.

For inspiration, there's also the Malazan books of the Fallen- I haven't read them myself, but reviews I've gotten from others consistently paint them as a truly EPIC!!!! setting turned up way past "11" to like, "20" or more.

And of course, my own 3.X setting was designed for Epic play, and the PCs in it did eventually become gods. We kept going using Upper_Krust's Immortals Handbook rules, and all involved agreed that the ending of that game was one for the ages. Epic can work very, very well if you design for it in advance.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Preventing enormous disparity in character niche abilities, powers and defenses will always be the biggest problem.

I think there needs to be a built-in system for simplification of mechanics. A kind of meta-mechanic, so to speak, which strives toward simplicity; it gathers up all of the untidy ends as characters progress through epic levels, and cuts down on the bookkeeping.

I would suggest Epic PrCs which effectively retro-train character levels in other classes. When you become a Cosmic Descryer, you are not a Diviner 10 / whatnot 5 / whatever 9 / Cosmic Descryer 1 - you simply become a Cosmic Descryer 25. There is a controlled paradigm-shift in mechanics which resets to zero, and eliminates the enormous differences in character abilities.

One might "plan a build" toward such an Epic PrC, so to speak, in the same manner as one would any other PrC; but in the knowledge that certain sacrifices would have to be made upon attaining it for reintroducing the game balance in a fresh and consistent form. The PrCs would hence need to be sufficiently seductive, and genuinely excite players in the new possibilities which they offered.

Things like SR, DR, Saves, BAB etc. can be to a large extent flattened. Lots of other stuff be made at-will, so there's no tracking. Or given up: at level 25 you make your choice and enter a bigger world, where the rules are simpler again and new. Until that point (whatever point that is) the game continues with the normal progression.

There needs to be complete understanding between DM and Players as to rationalizing this transition in an ongoing campaign; in games which started already Epic this wouldn't need to happen.

Essentially, you'd need as many niche Epic PrCs with suggested substitutable suites of abilities and powers as you could crank out, exciting variants, and a whole bunch of magic items - I'd give them the same treatment.

But fundamentally, you have to rebalance the game, and make it simpler.

 

[GreyLord]

I think the loose guidelines given in the rules for epic level is fine with one exception. It always bothered me that the total number of attacks were capped. I felt that was an artificial handicap on Fighters and warriors in general. Hence for epic games if I could houserule, that was always done away with. I am a big fan of continuing the rules as they are presented...so BAB, attacks, spells, etc. keep progressing as they have. If they want to balance it out more...perhaps ADDING a set of rules on top of that would be better.

In a way the rules describe, it as such in PF from what I've seen in it's very small and loose explanation for those who want to continue such, with the exception of Attacks. I'd prefer spell tables up to where they can cast 10 spells of every level 1-9 or even 1-10...BUT I'm fine with how it is done with PF as well. It all works and is easy enough to figure out that I'm fine with what's in the rules already without them ever having to do an Epic level book.

 

[ruemere]

E6 style of levelling beyond 20 gets my vote.

I.e. levelling via feats, nothing else.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[fireinthedust]

Preventing enormous disparity in character niche abilities, powers and defenses will always be the biggest problem.

I think there needs to be a built-in system for simplification of mechanics. A kind of meta-mechanic, so to speak, which strives toward simplicity; it gathers up all of the untidy ends as characters progress through epic levels, and cuts down on the bookkeeping.

I would suggest Epic PrCs which effectively retro-train character levels in other classes. When you become a Cosmic Descryer, you are not a Diviner 10 / whatnot 5 / whatever 9 / Cosmic Descryer 1 - you simply become a Cosmic Descryer 25. There is a controlled paradigm-shift in mechanics which resets to zero, and eliminates the enormous differences in character abilities.

One might "plan a build" toward such an Epic PrC, so to speak, in the same manner as one would any other PrC; but in the knowledge that certain sacrifices would have to be made upon attaining it for reintroducing the game balance in a fresh and consistent form. The PrCs would hence need to be sufficiently seductive, and genuinely excite players in the new possibilities which they offered.

Things like SR, DR, Saves, BAB etc. can be to a large extent flattened. Lots of other stuff be made at-will, so there's no tracking. Or given up: at level 25 you make your choice and enter a bigger world, where the rules are simpler again and new. Until that point (whatever point that is) the game continues with the normal progression.

There needs to be complete understanding between DM and Players as to rationalizing this transition in an ongoing campaign; in games which started already Epic this wouldn't need to happen.

Essentially, you'd need as many niche Epic PrCs with suggested substitutable suites of abilities and powers as you could crank out, exciting variants, and a whole bunch of magic items - I'd give them the same treatment.

But fundamentally, you have to rebalance the game, and make it simpler.

So you're saying make everyone re-make their characters? And use a different set of monsters.

I get what you're saying. It's a good point, and well taken.

You'd need to incorporate a lot of the little bonuses characters accumulate through Feat trees, spell combinations, etc. This way they're still the same characters the players have been using for however long.

Otherwise, they may play differently, and be different characters.

I wonder what that would look like...

Maybe a menu of Pathfinder options similar to the Eidolon menu, but for Class abilities. Kind of like the Generic Classes in Arcana Unearthed, perhaps?