Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Epic

[glass]

Next up, Epic Multi-Attack.

This is basically a version/merger of the Storm of X feats from the ELH. You can make an attack against everything within 30 ft (melee if you can reach them all, or ranged, or a mix). Also reduces iterative penalties. Not super exciting, but nice if you are surrounded! There's synergy stuff, but it is all calls forward to feats I have not mentioned yet so I'll circle back. EDIT: Specifically Epic Warrior and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting.

I have already talked about Epic Occult (Spell)caster and Epic Primal (Spell)caster, so next up in between them is Epic Performer. The first thing this does is makes rounds of Bardic Performance (or Raging Song) per encounter rather than per day. In practice, this generally means you do not need to track them unless you use a bunch of stuff that costs extra rounds (I almost phrased it as "you do not need to track them unless you spend extra rounds"), but I decided that that was....not exactly more complicated, but easier to misinterpret.

You also gain two extra abilities to make use of said rounds (from a choice of four): Deafening Song and Hindering Song are as per the ELH feats of the same names. Enhance Weapons is as per the Spell Warrior skald archetype, and Glorious Epic is as per the Dragon Skald archetype ability. I wanted to give a little more choice than just the first too, and having sat at a PFS tables with a Spell Warrior I can vouch for Enhance Weapons being a really cool ability!

Next up Epic Rage.

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[glass]

Since we are now on page 2 of the thread, before I go any further I am just going to recap (mostly for myself) the mistakes I spotted so far (and other things that need amending or further thought):

• Figure out what exactly the epic bonuses should and should not stack with and make that explicit.
• Decide and specify how many hit points Epic characters get.
• Figure out how hit points work with level packs and shuffling.
• Update the list of feats at the start of the Epic feats chapter.
• Make it clear that Blinding Speed is non-magical. EDIT: Already was.
• Remove/reword the “no normal spells of those levels” from Epic Spellcaster.
• Correct Epic Champion table caption.
• Change EB to initiator level bonus in Epic Galant.
• Create an Epic feat for non-magical hp restoration (probably)
• Figure out the Extra Ki Power mess.
• Maybe simplify Epic Martial Artists weapon group, and definitely figure out what if anything it should do apart from allowing flurry with a wider variety of stuff.
• Rename the Epic X (Spell)caster feats to be less long-winded.

Wow, that’s a lot and we are only up to page 28. At least it shows this thread is a worthwhile exercise.

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[d24454_modern]

Honestly, I don’t like the idea stat caps since I feel like it goes against the principle of Epic Level Gameplay. That being said, I think that the Classes themselves should cap out at 20.

 

[glass]

Honestly, I don’t like the idea stat caps since I feel like it goes against the principle of Epic Level Gameplay.

Neither do I. What in this thread or the attached document made you think that I did (so I can edit it)?

EDIT: Unless you mean things like BAB and base saves. In which case they capped to prevent an ever widening gap, but replaced by EB at Epic levels so it is not a reall cap on your effective attack and save bonuses.

EDIT2: Sorry, that was a bit more accusatory than I intended. Thanks for posting and welcome to the thread!

That being said, I think that the Classes themselves should cap out at 20.

Indeed. There is no point in ever-escalating class levels unless I am going to create actual class features for those levels - which I am not. It would be considerably less scalable both upwards, and across the breadth of classes PF1 has (especially given the several extra classes my other homebrew efforts have made).

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[glass]

Epic Rage is next; it supports both normal and unchained barbarians, and bloodragers (although as written not Urban Barbarians very well - and presumably other archetypes could do with checking). It effectively gives you a "best of both worlds" rage between normal and unchained: Full stat bonuses, except with an explicit note that your hp does not change due to the change in Con: Instead, you gain THP like a uBarb would. As written, you only get the THP once per encounter, but having just looked at the unchained write-up again I see that one is on a one-minute cooldown. That will be the same thing 99% of the time, so I may as well keep it consistant.

Anyway, like Epic Performer it makes the rounds of rage per-encounter, which effectively means you do not need to bother tracking them unless your are using up multiple rounds per round. Although now I am wondering about changing them both back to being expliclty non tracking for "normal" rounds - which is what I had initially, but I could not come up with a wording I was happy with.

Like Epic Martial Artist, it provides a couple of picks from a new list of selectable abilities and refers to a feat to get more (although in this case Extra Rage Power definitely exists). The extra rage powers in this case are Chaotic Rage, Incite Rage, Ruinous Rage, Terrifying Rage, and Thunderous rage. These are all based on the ELH feats of the same name, and do broadly what you would expect, although they generally have less-extreme prereqs.

As little quality of life improvements, once/rage Rage Powers become twice/rage, Rolling Dodge and/or Guarded Stance become automatic while raging rather than requiring actions to activate, and Reneved Vigour becomes usable Con-bonus times per day (but only twice per rage). You also add you EB to the hp restored, which is admittedly only a token bonus. I would have added more, but if you need more you can use it to trigger an Epic Recovery. At least I thought you could, but as worded I am now not so sure; Renewed Vigour does not appear to actually be a healing effect.

So, one more feat, four more issues for my list:

• Make the THP cooldown consistant with unchained barbarians
• Make this feat support urban barbarians properly somehow.
• Check the other barbarian and bloodrager archetypes for compatibility. Also skalds, now I think about it.
• Make Epic Recoveries work with Renewed Vigour.

Who knew I was so error prone?

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[glass]

There are eight feats after Epic Rage in Chapter 2, but I have already talked about Epic Reflexes, Epic Spellcaster, Epic Theurge, Epic Votary, and Epic Will so that only really leaves three. The first of which is Epic Warrior.

As the name implies, this one is a fairly generic feat for anyone who like to insert bits of pointy metal into the enemy. It has two main benefits: It makes you slightly better at full attacking, and a lot better at making a single attack. The former take the form of reduced iterative penalties (same as, and stacking with Epic Multi-Attack). And the ability to full attack with a standard+a swift (so you can still move).

Full attacks are a bit of an issue in 3.P, for two reasons. The first is that they severely reduce the mobility of fights, and the above helps with that. Unfortunately, it does so in a way that potentially makes them more likely. And since the other problem is they can take a while, that is an issue.

Obviously it makes sense to encourage single attacks, but that is easier said than done when I just removed their main use case (needing to move). The previous version of this feat gave what I thought at the time were fairly significant bonuses for choosing to take only a single attack. But nobody in my Age of Worms campaign who had this feat (which was most of them IIRC) chose to do so even once. So this time I really upped the ante:

• When making the attack, you roll 2d20 and take the better result. If you are
  already rolling 2 (or more) d20s for some reason, roll and add an additional
  d6 also.
• You add an additional bonus equal to your bab to your attack roll.
• You add an additional bonus equal to your bab to your damage roll. This is
  multiplied normally on a crit.
• If the attack is a melee attack, you may add both your Strength and Dexterity
  bonuses (if any) to the attack roll rather than one or the other. If the attack is
  a ranged attack with a projectile weapon, you may add both your Dex bonus
  and your Wis bonus (if any) to the attack roll. If the attack is a ranged attack
  with a thrown weapon, you may choose either set of ability-score bonuses. If
  you have another ability which allows you to use a different ability score to
  the attack roll, you may add an additional bonus from the above list that you
  are not already adding – whichever bonus give you the higher damage.
• The basic damage dice for the attack are five times greater than normal (so
  for example a greatsword would do 10d6 and a greataxe would do 5d12).
  This is multiplied normally on a crit (ignoring the rule about multiple
  multiplications).
• If your attack roll exceeds the target’s AC by 20, that is a critical hit regardless
  of the natural die roll (as long as it is not a natural 1, which still misses), which
  does not need to be confirmed.
• Finally, if your attack roll exceeds the target’s AC by twenty, you an additional
  damage bonus equal your bab. For every multiple of 10 (30, 40, and so on),
  above that by which your attack roll exceeds the targets AC, add an
  additional bonus to damage equal to your bab. These bonuses are not
  multiplied for the critical hit, but are also not dependant on it, so apply even
  if the target is immune to crits or the crit is somehow negated (for example,
  by a fortification effect).

Maybe that will be enough?

Apart from the time factor, some of the monsters in the ELH have pretty high ACs for the CR so in these cases they will need to the help (which is another reason why the above list is so extreme - even against higher ACs, the attack bonuses have to stack up to rolling 9 or more times to be worthwhile). Of course, I could get rid that when I re-write the creature chapter, but I am not intending to do so partly due to this feat; it is all a bit circular.

If all that was not enough, there is a large list of synergy effects - mostly extra bennefits for combat feats and/or making other ways of making single attacks count (wholey or partly) for the deveastating attack option. EDIT: Also, I meant to add something making the gunslingers one-shot deed (I forget the name), count as a single devastating attack. EDIT2: Dead Shot.

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glass.

 

[glass]

We wrap up Chapter 2 with the final two feats: Epic Weapon Master and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. These are obviously also for martials, obviously, but perhaps a bit more focussed than Epic Warrior.

Epic Weapon Master makes any feats that apply to a single weapon (eg Weapon Focus) instead apply to a whole group (fighter weapon groups or discipline groups). It also lets you draw or stow a weapon as a swift action. This is useful for switch hitter, but a bit light for an Epic feat even with the +1 Dex or Str (usual rules - to be clarified). EDIT: What else could I add to this that is in theme?

Perfect TWF gives you the fourth attack with your offhand and reduces the penalties for TWFing by two (effectively to zero in most cases). You can attack with both weapons on a charge.

Synergy bonuses give extra damage with Two Weapon Rend, allows you to count your unarmed strike as two weapons for TWF if you have IUS, and allow you to take an attack with each weapon if you have Whirlwind Attack.

This one also looks a bit light on paper, but extra attacks are a pretty big deal so I am not worried.

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[glass]

One other thing to address, and I will be done with Chapter 2 (for now):

There's synergy stuff [in Epic Multi-Attack], but it is all calls forward to feats I have not mentioned yet so I'll circle back.

If you have Epic Warrior, you can use Epic Multi-Attack's whirlwind-on-steroids as a standard+swift, just like you could do a normal full attack. If you do, you can expend your move action to move between attacks, divided up as you like.

Perfect TWF allows you to make a second attack at -5 against each target, as long as you use a different weapon.

There is also a synergy with Combat Patrol which also allows a second attack at -5 (this one does not care how many weapons you use).

Now I just need to figure out how to fix all the issues I talked about in posts 22, 26, and 27, and I will be done with the first two chapters (except not really, because I still need to create some new feats).

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[glass]

EDIT: Double post.

 

[glass]

Now I just need to figure out how to fix all the issues I talked about in posts 22, 26, and 27.

I stuck with the original plan of making the Epic stat increases count as both inherent and enhancement, and therefore stack with neither (and made that explicit in the text). That does mean quite a long "flat spot" for your key stats, but that cannot be avoided if I want to keep things vaguely in line with established numbers. I did increase the stat bonus at level 21 to +2, so it will be a couple of levels shorter.

I decided to give 3 + Con bonus hp per Epic level, which sounds a bit stingy by Con will be going up too so hp growth will be more rapid that it would appear at first. I nearly dropped it down to 2 (or even 1), but I settled on 3 in the end. I added discussion of hp to Caps & Level Shuffling.

For Urban Barbarians (and others that have the Controlled Range feature), I added a synergy entry.

The revised document is attached below. Assuming I did not add a bunch of new errors, that cuts down the list considerably:

• Create an Epic feat for non-magical hp restoration (probably)
• Figure out the Extra Ki Power mess.
• Maybe simply Epic Martial Artists weapon group, and definitely figure out what if anything it should do apart from allowing flurry with a wider variety of stuff.
• Check the other barbarian and bloodrager archetypes for compatibility. Also skalds, now I think about it.
• What else could I add to [Epic Weapon Master] that is in theme?

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[Zio_the_dark]

The revised document is attached below.

You should update your first post with the updated document, if the thread expand it will be easier to find for newcomers

 

[glass]

You should update your first post with the updated document, if the thread expand it will be easier to find for newcomers

Oh yeah, I meant to do that. Thanks for the reminder!

(Done.)

 

[glass]

Yesterday I finished with chapter 2 (for extremely small values of "finished"), so today we look at Chapter 3. While my Epic feats are very different from ELH epic feats, my Legendary feats are much closer - and as I typed that, I was wondering if I should have named them the other way around, but there is a good reason for the feats to be that way around: My Epic feats are exclusive to and the main building block of Epic characters, whereas Legendary feats are neither of those things (anyone with at least 21 HD can take them - dragons, titans, etc).

There are 14 of these. All are simpler than any Epic feat, and several of the do what they say on the tin and do not really require much in the way further comment: Additional Magic Item Space, Armour Skin, Distant Shot, Dragon Wild Shape, Extra Domain, Magical Beast Wild Shape, Oversize Wild Shape, and Undersize Wild Shape.

Several of these are based directly on ELH epic feats, although even here there is a bit of merging going on. As a general principle, these are also one and done, with either decent bonuses right off the bat or scaling bonuses, rather than the take-it-a-bunch-of-times factor of some ELH feats (their version of Armour Skin for example IIRC). The only exception in the above list is Additional Magic Item Space, which you can take once per item slot.

And now it is bed time, so I will get onto the feats that have a bit more to say about them tomorrow.

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[glass]

The first feat not included in the list in the previous post is Bulwark of Defence. This increases the bonuses from Defensive Stance, similar to (but lesser than) Epic Rage. It give lesser bonuses because, while Rage was upgraded significantly in PF1, Defensive Stance was not (also it is that ability of AFAIK one prestige class rather than being the signature ability of multiple base classes). And that in turn is why it is a Legendary Feat rather than Epic. TBH, the only reason I included it at all is that it is pretty much a direct port of the ELH feat of the same name - otherwise I would probably never have thought of it.

Enhance Spell is upgraded slightly from its ELH origins. Since a metamagic feat to upgrade the cap for damage already existst pre-Epic in PF1, this needed a little somethign extra. So I decided that that something extra was that it works for any capped applications of caster level, not just damage.

• There is a typo in the prereqs: "of" should be "or".

Since we are talking metamagic, I will jump ahead to Magnify Spell. This is a new name for what the ELH calls Intensify Spell - since the latter is a bit close to Intensified Spell. As is common amongst these feats, I made the prereqs somewhat less extreme, and I also tweaked the interation with other metamagic effects slightly.

That will do for now. Next time, Expanded Spell Knowledge.

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[glass]

That will do for now. Next time, Expanded Spell Knowledge.

This is based on the ELH feat Spell Knowledge. I cannot remember why I renamed it; maybe I just thought it sounded better. Anyway, it works more or less like the original (adding two spells to your spells known), except that it is not limited to arcane spells. When the ELH was published, probably the only people who would want to use it would be arcane but times change - both divine casters who do not know their whole list, and casters who are neither arcane nor divine exist now. I also made this count as Spell Mastery for classes that care about that kind of thing, but those classes are probably still not going to be interested most of the time.

This is an incremental feat, with a rising Int prereq. An Int increase of two takes four levels for Epic characters, but they only get a general feat slot every three levels, effectively making it a six-level increment. Not sure how I feel about that - I might make it character level or caster level instead.

Also an Incremental feat (with a caster-level increment this time) is Familiar Spell. Apart from adjusting the prereqs as usual, this is a straight port from the ELH with just a bit of rewording.

And that is actually it for the feats in this chapter. Next step is probably to review what could be or needs to be added (I feel like there was something that came up earlier in the thread, but I cannot immediately find it. What I might do next is go through all the feats in the ELH and remind myself where they ended up (or did not).

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[glass]

Right, the first ten feats from the ELH (largely because that seems to be the limit on table rows) and what I decided to do with them (as far as I can recall):

Additional Magic Item Space	Legendary feat. Minor tweaks.
Armour Skin	Legendary feat. Made scaling rather than re-takable
Augmented Alchemy	Dropped due to being unimpressive. Need an Epic Alchemy feat, but it probably will not look much like this one.
Automagic X Spell	Rolled into Automatic Metamagic Epic feat.
Bane of Enemies	Not currently implemented. Could be rolled into an Epic feat to support higher-level rangers maybe. EDIT: Although I am not keen on hatred as a power source, so I may have left it out deliberately.
Beast Companion	Went away due to beast not being a type any more.
Beast Wild Shape	Went away due to beast not being a type any more.
Blinding Speed	Bulked to form core of Blinding Speed Epic feat.
Bonus Domain	Became Extra Domain legendary feat.
Bulwark of Defence	Legendary feat. Minor tweaks.

Some food for thought there. Next ten in the next post.

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[glass]

Next ten in the next post.

Chaotic Rage	Rage power accessed through Epic Rage.
Colossal Wild Shape	Rolled into Oversize Wildshape legendary feat.
Combat Archery	Not currently represented. Could become a Legendary feat, or maybe part of an Epic feat
Craft Epic X	Rolled into Epic Crafter feat.
Damage Reduction	Dropped due to being boring numbers (although Epic Rage does give boosts to DR while raging).
Deafening Song	Performance accessed via Epic Performer.
Death of Enemies	Not currently implemented. Could be rolled into an Epic feat to support higher-level rangers maybe. Although I am not keen on hatred as a power source, so I may have left it out deliberately.
Devastating Critical	Not directly implemented. Epic Criticals and Epic Warrior have crit-related stuff, but no direct save-or-die. Maybe roll various martial save-or-dies together somehow?
Dexstrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will	Dropped due to being weird (and not in a good way).
Diminutive Wild Shape	EDIT: Partly rolled into Undersize Wildshape, although diminutive animal forms are already available to PF1 druids (from 8th level!) EDIT2: Although not the non-animal forms, so it probably needs editing.

More food for thought.

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[glass]

Continuing with the ELH feats:

Dire Charge	Dropped for now, partly becase there are already several ways to get pounce in PF1 and partly because I do not want to encourage full attacks any more than they already are.
Distant Shot	Legendary feat. Minor tweaks.
Dragon Wildshape	Legendary feat. Reworded as befits the changes to Wildshape and polymorph in PF1. Prereqs toned down less than average.
Energy Resistance	Like DR, this does not feel like a generic feat to me, and besides it is just numbers. Dropped.
Enhance Spell	Legendary feat. Minor tweaks.
Epic Dodge	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Endurance	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Fortitude	Changed from a flat numerical bonus to something a little more interesting, and bulked up to become Epic feat.
Epic Inspiration	Boring Numbers. Dropped and replaced with Epic Performer.
Epic Leadership	Dropped due to being a gargantuan can of worms I dit not want to get into!

The only thing that springs to mind here is the possibility of a charge-based feat. But almost certainly not full attack based, so I am not sure what it would do instead.

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[glass]

Ten more ELH feats:

Epic Prowess	Just hell no!
Epic Reflexes	Changed from a flat numerical bonus to something a little more interesting, and bulked up to become Epic feat.
Epic Reputation	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Skill Focus	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Speed	Dropped, although the Blinding Speed Epic feat includes a reduced version
Epic Spell Focus	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Spell Penetration	Boring numbers. Dropped.
Epic Spellcaster	Became Cosmic Spellcaster. Epic Spellcaster is something else (mostly)
Epic Toughness	Temporarily became part of Epic Defences, before I dropped that for being boring numbers (and a feat tax to boot).
Epic Weapon Focus	Boring numbers. Dropped.

Nothing much to add here, except to mention that I need to actually write the Cosmic Spellcasting chapter.

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[glass]

Yet more ELH feats:

Epic Will	Changed from a flat numerical bonus to something a little more interesting, and bulked up to become Epic feat.
Exceptional Deflection	Dropped for now. Might add it back later.
Extended Life Span	Rolled in to general Epic benefits and also Epic Fortitude.
Familiar Spell	Legendary feat. Minor tweaks.
Fast Healing	Dropped for now. Might add it back later.
Fine Wild Shape	Rolled into Undersize Wild Shape.
Forge Epic Ring	Rolled into Epic Crafter.
Gargantuan Wild Shape	Rolled into Oversize Wild Shape.
Great Charisma (etc)	Exascerbates widening the gap. Dropped.
Great Smiting	Not currently represented. Not sure what to do with this one.

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