Pathfinder 1E Pathfinderizing the Spellthief

[Matthias]

My all-time favourite class is the spellthief - which happens to be one of the "weakest" classes in the game. Experience has told me that when the class is in its ideal element, it is a lot of fun and not "overpowered", but when it is in a situation where the stealing spell/innate abilities isn't an option, it is basically a useless class.

So, the question is, how to do the spellthief in pathfinder?

I realize there are some current options (such as the sandman) that exist, and if someone can point me towards RAW builds that approximate the spellthief, that'd be dandy. But if your GM said to you, "Wik, you can make up your own class that is based off the spellthief", how would you do it?

Keep in mind that the thing that makes the class so much fun to play is the ability to steal spells and spell-like abilities. Stealing a random spell and then trying to find the best use of it is a lot of fun for people that like to think on their feet and look for creative solutions - it's what I love about the class.

The 3.5 spellthief was a strange animal. I would have expected such a concept to be designed as a prestige class for a rogue/sorcerer to tap into--Rogue because some are thieves by profession, Sorcerer because their repertoire of magic is limited. Forget about making spellthief a full, 20-level base class--its bag of tricks is too specialized for that IMO.

So I would do one of the following:

(a) convert the 3.5 Spellthief into a Rogue archetype. This makes the most sense because spellthief shares a sneak attack and trapfinding ability with Rogue.

(b) convert the 3.5 Spellthief into a Sorcerer archetype or maybe a bloodline. Sorcerer would be appropriate because the Spellthief gets sorcerer/wizard spells and can spontaneously cast like a Sorcerer can.

(c) recreate spellthief as a "multiclass archetype", which would in theory replace class abilities from both Rogue and Sorcerer with a single set of archetype abilities that mesh well together.

(d) convert the Spellthief into a prestige class geared toward rogue/sorcerer characters, which would probably include reducing the number of class levels, 10 at most.

 

[blargney the second]

I think prestige class is the way to go. Take 3.5's Master Spellthief feat as the starting place of what the class ought to be able to do.

Prereq possibilities:
- Sleight of Hand and Spellcraft ranks
- 2nd level spells or psionic powers
- Improved Steal feat
- entry point should be at 5th or 6th level

PrC capabilities:
- 5 to 10 levels
- stacking spellcasting levels, possibly even full progression (or very nearly)
- maybe use Sleight of Hand or CMB vs CMD to steal a spell?
- first level, standard action to melee hit and steal a spell
- halfway through levels, gain Spellmug: full-round action to melee attack once, steal spell on hit, and cast right away
- capstone, Improved Spellmug: as part of a full-attack action, declare one attack the one that steals a spell on a hit, can replace any later attack in the sequence with the casting.

 

[Wik]

Doing the annoying multi-quote thing for organizational purposes. My apologies in advance!

PrC capabilities:
- 5 to 10 levels

10 Levels is doable - could make it follow the same sort of progression as the arcane trickster, which is a similar concept.

- stacking spellcasting levels, possibly even full progression (or very nearly)

Arcane Trickster is full progression, which I think is fair - after all, if you have to lose sorcerer progression to dip into rogue, you're already boned. For what it's worth, I like the idea of having the class have trapfinding.

- maybe use Sleight of Hand or CMB vs CMD to steal a spell?
- first level, standard action to melee hit and steal a spell
- halfway through levels, gain Spellmug: full-round action to melee attack once, steal spell on hit, and cast right away
- capstone, Improved Spellmug: as part of a full-attack action, declare one attack the one that steals a spell on a hit, can replace any later attack in the sequence with the casting.

Those all seem like fun, and, most importantly, relatively simple.

As a side note, I've kind of had this idea for years about a spellthief who steals a spell, but is unable to actually CAST the spell, and can't release it. It's been stuck inside him for a while, and it's slowly making him take on aspects of the spell (whether it's destructive or nice, I have no clue yet).

 

[Wik]

A Draft For the Spellthief PRC:

Pre-Reqs:
* Must be able to cast 2nd level arcane spells.
* Eschew Materials
* Sneak Attack +2d6
* Spellcraft 5 ranks.
* Use Magic Device 5 ranks.

Hit Die: d8.
Attack: As Rogue.
Saves: Reflex and Will.

Skills: 6 + Int. Combination of both sorcerer and rogue list, more or less.

Spells: Proceeds as sorcerer. No level loss.

Abilities:

Spellthief (1st): Can steal spell instead of a die of sneak attack damage. Opposed check against the target's CMD (with a bonus to the CMD equal to the level of the spell you steal). If you win, you get to steal the spell. You gain +1 for each die of sneak attack you sacrifice. You must lose at least 1d6 points of Sneak Attack. Stolen spell is randomly determined, cannot be a higher level than your spellthief level. You can name a spell, and you get that one if the target has it. Spells that you steal are based on your charisma score.
Armoured Sneak (1st): No spell failure while in light armour.
Trapfinding (1st): Spellthief and Rogue levels stack for purposes of Trapfinding.
Magic Sight (2nd): Detect Magic at will.
Sneak Attack (2nd): +1d6.
Steal Spell Effect (3rd): Can steal an active spell effect and transfer to self, with a sneak attack. This works just like steal spell, and you must spend at least 1d6 of sneak attack to do so.
Steal Energy Resistance (4th): Steal Energy Resistance. Again, through 1d6 of Sneak Attack. While you steal, the monster loses the resistance. It remains at stealing 10 points, and does not improve. You cannot steal immunity.
Steal Spell-Like Ability (5th): Can steal a spell-like ability. Works otherwise like steal spell. While you have it, the other guy can't use it. You can only use the ability once.
Sneak Attack (5th): +2d6.
Absorb Spell (6th): Once per day, the spellthief can attempt to absorb a spell as a mage is casting it. He makes an opposed caster level check against the caster, and if he succeeds, he absorbs the spell before it is cast - and gains an extra spell slot.
Fast Stealing (6th): Full round action, can steal spell and then immediately cast it.
Spell Evasion (7th): Can make a save against a spell even if it doesn't normally allow a save.
Sneak Attack (8th): +3d6.
Steal Spell Resistance (9th): Lose 3d6 points of Sneak Attack to lower a target's SR by 5 points, and gain SR 5, for a number of rounds equal to Spellthief's Cha Modifier.
Reflect Spell (10th): If a spellthief saves against an effect that targets just him, he can instantly reflect it back upon the caster.

 

[blargney the second]

Btw I'm going to be Wik's DM in this game. Also, I'm still fully in brainstorming mode here, so I guess that means design mode rather than development. There are some interesting notions there, Wik. I've got a few more to throw on the blackboard. These ones have a theme:

Possible prereqs:
- Combat Casting
- Combat Reflexes
- Disruptive

Possible abilities:
- When you successfully disrupt a caster's concentration (with a melee attack or via defensive casting failure?), you can automatically steal that spell. (No check involved.)
- Magic syphon: caster level checks near you are made at a penalty. (Will save or Spellcraft check? )
- Mystic distraction: when you are flanking an enemy, they take a penalty on caster level checks.

For what it's worth, I'd like there to be a few different class options to get into the PrC. Bard, for instance, not to mention wizard. If it doubles easily as a psithief that would be cool. (Prolly requires magic/psionics transparency).

 

[PinstripedBarbarian]

I actually went through a bunch of ideas on how to update Spellthief for a current campaign I'm running. Sandman is, alas, just not the same.

I settled for a rogue archetype, stripping out half of the SA dice and switching out talents for theft abilities and SLA's like Arcane Eye. I think I buffed up some of the theft options a little too, but it's been a while.

Honestly, now that I've looked around more through the various PF stuff available, I think a Magus archetype is best and most easily converted to Spellthief.
You already have a good frame for it: d8 HD, med BAB, limited spellcasting, etc. I'd say switch Fort with Reflex (always seemed like Spellthief should have strong Reflex). Replace medium and heavy armor with SLA's Spellthief gets, and maybe switch Fighter Training with a rogue-related ability.
The big seller to me is Arcane Pool and Spellstrike. You can very easily convert the pool from boosting weaponry to stealing magic, and spellstrike can change to be sneak attack oriented for similar means. Anything especially strange that is missing can simply replace a magus arcana.

 

[blargney the second]

I've found some interesting conversions that other folks have already put some thought into. Some are more interesting than others, and some are more like idea seeds:

1) Savage Tide; Pathfinder | Spellthief | Obsidian Portal
2) Spellthief (Rogue/Sorcerer) - Pathfinder_OGC
3) paizo.com - Conversions: Spellthief as Rogue Archetype
4) paizo.com - Conversions: Spellthief - does he need to change?