PC Alignment clash with a twist

[Tom Cashel]

Okay, so here's the story:

Our group has a dwarven Ftr/Clr of Clangeddin (NG), a human Rgr/Rog/Clr of Selune (CG) and a dwarven Wiz (NG). They have recently promised to undertake a quest for the moon goddess Selune (CG), and are currently considering themselves her champions.

The dwarven wizard has summoned an infernal ape, and is threatening to bring more infernal and dire beasts to aid us. When he summoned the infernal ape, the dwarf Ftr/Clr attacked it.

Both clerics have told the wizard not to do it, and that the party will break up if he does it again. His point is: a summoned creature is just a tool, a weapon, under his total control and to be used like any other asset. A very pragmatic, wizardly view.

The clerics aren't buying that. They claim that evil means will become evil ends, and that if you summon too many of those hellspawns, the dark powers will eventually take notice of you. Put simply, they'd rather lose the upcoming battle with a black dragon than win with the help of evil summoned creatures. And there are plenty of celestial options for the wizard to summon.

The twist is that they're all good PCs, trying to use their powers as best they can. But from the role-playing perspective, they've got a party-breaker on their hands.

Ever had this happen? Something like it? Comments?

p.s. IMC I use the alignment rules as written, i.e. good and evil (unlike the real world) are absolutes. Detect spells function as written. Not sure why that would come up, but since it seems to come up in every other alignment thread, I thought I'd let you know what we're working with right from the start.

 

[Frostmarrow]

The clerics are simply jealous that they can't do it. The summoner should be able to summon whatever he wants without the clerics intefering.

Sadly the clerics outnumber the dwarf and he might feel hard pressed to leave such intolerant associates. Which really is too bad, since the dwarf seems the most interesting of the lot.

Perhaps the clerics should learn that Lantern Archons are used to light the way in hell and that a CE wizard lives on Mount Celestia.

Edit: On alignment: Yes, if the wizard persists in summoning infernal creatures he will slowly shift to the dark side but that's the stuff legends are made of. Likewise, if the clerics persist in prohibiting the wizard from summoning infernal creatures they are not true to their ethics and would shift closer to LG or even LN. (Chaotic) Good characters should have doubts about such things.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Good points! Actually, LG might be the right alignment for the dwarven cleric, anyway...

The dwarven wizard seems the most interesting of the lot? He'll like that...you're looking forward to Monte's Book of Vile Darkness, aren't you, Frost?

 

[Bronn Spellforger]

The clerics are simply jealous that they can't do it. The summoner should be able to summon whatever he wants without the clerics intefering.

Sadly the clerics outnumber the dwarf and he might feel hard pressed to leave such intolerant associates. Which really is too bad, since the dwarf seems the most interesting of the lot.

Frostmarrow is by far the wisest person on these boards. Tom -- I want this person to join our campaign!

(Truth is, from a role-playing standpoint... this is a really fun argument.)

Bronn Spellforger

 

[Tom Cashel]

Agreed. Your last reply, after the clerics finished haranguing you, of "We shall see," and going back to your studies...was perfect.

Bronn is swiftly becoming the quintessential wizard, not to be trifled with.

The question is, whose alignment will shift over this???

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Frostmarrow - Just jealous they can't do it?? Not really, a real role playing question has arisen. The dwarf's pragmatic point of view and the religious belief's of the two clerics. And the fact of the matter is, other characters do interfere and it makes for good role-playing. If I had a dime for every time the Ranger in our group tried to prevent the party from riding horses, I would be rich (this conflict persisted until he used speak with animals on my paladin's warhorse and found that the animal liked being his mount ).

If the wizard is as pragmatic as he claims to be, he will make a pragmatic decision to stop summoning evil creatures to remain with the party. There are other spells and other tactics that will work.

By the way, great role-playing by the party attacking the infernal ape. Kudos for the Ftr/Clr going to bat for his convictions.

 

[Frostmarrow]

A dwarven wizard with a bad habit of summoning all the wrong creatures on a quest for freedom is all I look for in a great character.

Frostmarrow - Just jealous they can't do it?? Not really, a real role playing question has arisen. The dwarf's pragmatic point of view and the religious belief's of the two clerics. And the fact of the matter is, other characters do interfere and it makes for good role-playing. If I had a dime for every time the Ranger in our group tried to prevent the party from riding horses, I would be rich (this conflict persisted until he used speak with animals on my paladin's warhorse and found that the animal liked being his mount ).

If the wizard is as pragmatic as he claims to be, he will make a pragmatic decision to stop summoning evil creatures to remain with the party. There are other spells and other tactics that will work.

By the way, great role-playing by the party attacking the infernal ape. Kudos for the Ftr/Clr going to bat for his convictions.

Yes. I am a conjurer myself and I've been critiziced many times by members of the cloth with little or no understanding for the art I try so hard to excel at.

They can't do it so my best guess is that they are simply jealous. Who are they to tell me what I'm allowed to do. You don't see me trying to tell them how to do their jobs now do you?

Sometimes I summon infernals and sometimes I summon celestials and all I hear is: "Doesn't the creatures you summon get irate when you steal them all the time?" To this I say "No, they don't. They love to get away and fight for a spell." It's not like they can die.

The creatures I summon are mine to control. I can prove this for I can have them do other things than fight. I speak a dozen languages. This means that they are mere tools and the only influence they can have on me is what I allow them to have.

I travel with a bunch of followers of Kord and luckily they don't demand that I do this or that, they are simply happy to have me around. Cuz I can heal and I do good.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Yes. I am a conjurer myself and I've been critiziced many times by members of the cloth with little or no understanding for the art I try so hard to excel at.

Um...you're talking about a D&D character, right?

 

[Umbran]

If you are using the alignment rules as written, then the wizard should know better than to say summoned creatures are "just tools".

Under the rules as written, casting a spell with an "Evil" descriptor is an evil act. The fact that a wizard can choose to do this, and a good cleric cannot, does not change the moral repercussions for the wizard. Good people do not truck with infernal powers. Period. If he summoned up a full-fledged demon and asked it for assistance, it'd be an evil act. It being a lesser infernal being changes the degree of the infraction, but not the fact that it is an infraction.

A wizard with Spellcraft skill should know this. He should know what spells like Detect Evil react to, and he should know what casting spells with the "evil" descriptor do to one's aura. Under the core rules, this is not a moral grey area. The dwarf's "pragmatic point of view" is in conflict with the facts as he should know them.

It is possible that the player is unaware of this. If, after being informed, the wizard does not change behavior, then it isn't a problem of like-aligned conflict. It then becomes a conflict between good characters and a character rapidly sliding towards neurality. Happens a lot with wizards. Seduced by easy power...

 

[Frostmarrow]

Um...you're talking about a D&D character, right?

Yes, and I pray that my fellow Kordites will talk the character out of using Planar Ally for the "benefit" of the party.