PC and Monster occuping Same Space?

[EOL]

This specific question came up in thinking of the following example:

Let's say a shifter (MoTW PrC) or a wizard with shape change was surrounded by 8 pit fiends (or 8 orcs if you don't like extreme examples) and he goes from being a medium size human to a gargantuan Purple Worm or huge Dire Tiger. What happens to the monster surrounding him?

Are they pushed away? Shoud this be like a Bull Rush? If so do they get an Ao0, what if they don't want to be pushed back? What should the Strength of the transformation be? If rather than a coiled Purple Worm if it was instead a Dire Tiger with lots of room underneath could they end up in the same space? If so what are the respective rules for that, in terms of AoO's and combat minuses (or pluses)?

Any insight is appreciated.

 

[Chronosome]

Wow, that sounds like a fun scenario!

Hmm..there are no set rules on it (I think), but here's
what I'd do...since these "squares" are really just an
approximation of where the creatures (I'm not 5' wide)and their
reaches are, I'd say that orcs CAN be in the same square/s
as the new Worm, but the pit fiends can't attack...they need
room to maneuver. Let Shifter Worm attack normally, the same
way you can attack a stirge while it's on you.

As for the "shift to fling", I'd only allow it if the fiends/orcs were
in a grapple with the Shifter. Let the Shifter make a Concentration
check to perform the change (spell-like ability, right?), and then
let the fiends/orcs and Shifter worm make opposed grapple
checks (with new size and strength modifiers for the shifter's
purple worm form). If the worm wins against any fiend/orc, they
get flung to the 5' edge of the worm's square. If any fiends/orcs
win, they're still in a grapple, clinging to the sides of the worm.

Have fun, and I hope this helps, even in an inspiratory way.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I don't think the change would provoke an AoO, and I think it would push the orcs/fiends to the closest unoccupied square.

If the shifter were changing to something that is the same size as the room, I would probably use Chrono's ideas and say they are in the same sqaures, and are considered stunned or some-such. Actually depending on the exact working, I might just disallow a change to something that is the same size as the room.

--Strict Spikey

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Or consider them grappling each other...

 

[smetzger]

This specific question came up in thinking of the following example:

Let's say a shifter (MoTW PrC) or a wizard with shape change was surrounded by 8 pit fiends (or 8 orcs if you don't like extreme examples) and he goes from being a medium size human to a gargantuan Purple Worm or huge Dire Tiger. What happens to the monster surrounding him?

Provokes an AoO. He moved into their 'space' just like a grapple or bull rush.

Are they pushed away? Shoud this be like a Bull Rush? If so do they get an Ao0, what if they don't want to be pushed back? What should the Strength of the transformation be? If rather than a coiled Purple Worm if it was instead a Dire Tiger with lots of room underneath could they end up in the same space? If so what are the respective rules for that, in terms of AoO's and combat minuses (or pluses)?

Any insight is appreciated.

Give the creatures the choice of either being 'pushed' back or remaining in the same area.

 

[EOL]

Wow four responses and four different answers!

I hadn't really thought of the idea of shifting into something as big as the available space, but it's similiar to ideas like shifting from a sparrow to an Iron Golem while over someone's head or shifting into something edible (a shrimp) getting eaten and then shifting into something Gargantuan, all of which I'm basically going to disallow though I haven't thought of a in game mechanic which would do that.

I guess pushing them to the edge without an AoO would be the easiest to implement, but it also leaves the most unanswered questions. What happens if there are people (PC's for instant on the 2nd rank away) does everyone just readjust? Or are there a serious of Bull Rush's. Purple worm Bull Rushs Orc who Bull Rushs flanking PC who Bull Rushes PC's animal companion?

Leaving them in the square might be the easiest, but then I have to come up with (or find) the rules for monsters and PC's occupying the same square even if they're not grappling.

 

[Astlin]

Several more options.

Shunted (see blink): You are forced to the nearest space able to fit you. You take 1d6 damage per 5' traveled.
If the nearest space is above your opponents you take the damage for the movement. If you are now 3+ sizes more than your opponents you do a Crush attack (see dragons in MM). No matter your size, you are now grappling all those that are sharing your space.

Disrupted (see the wall spells): If you attempt to change to a form/size that is larger than the available space your spell/ability is disrupted and you are stunned unless you make a Fort/Will save vs DC20 for a number of rounds equal to the amount you failed your save by.

Ants: If your new form is 5+ sizes larger than your opponents you Crush them (again like the Dragon attack) and are grappling. You suffer no damage from the change.

Just some ideas.

Astlin

 

[Anubis]

What happens if there are people (PC's for instant on the 2nd rank away) does everyone just readjust? Or are there a serious of Bull Rush's. Purple worm Bull Rushs Orc who Bull Rushs flanking PC who Bull Rushes PC's animal companion?

Actually, there is already a specific rule that covers that question. If you are pushed into any occupied space, you fall prone automatically.

 

[Chronosome]

Anubis, where's that rule? I'm looking for it and can't find it!

 

[EOL]

Actually, there is already a specific rule that covers that question. If you are pushed into any occupied space, you fall prone automatically.

I'm familiar with the Bull Rush rule where if the bull rush fails you go back five feet and fall prone, along with similar rules for trip, but like Chronosome I can't find a blanket statement where anytime you involuntarily find yourself in an occupied space you end up prone.