PC's always ruining your adventures with magic?

[Lord Rasputin]

Best article I ever read on the subject:

by Stu Venable

Point #3 has been brought up here many times in this thread. I never plan the solution.

 

[Ravellion]

I've a campaign world in cooking where most of the population is afraid of magic... meaning all the commoners will mob anyone who casts magic.

So anybody who wants to be a spell slinger is going to have to cope with being devious about how he uses his power. No fireballing the village in this place... they'll meet the posse from hell after that!

That doesn't seem like they are afraid. That seems to imply blind hatred.

If one guy has a gun and an entire bank full of hostages, his hostages probably could take him down if they mob him: a parallel of sorts. However, it never happens. The human psyche just doesn't work that way.

I'd suggest people jsut actually slamming doors in their faces, hoping that the mage will go away while cowering. Or go with your hatred option: but be aware that that is what it is: hatred.

Rav

 

[Felix]

I didn't want to get into it, but...

Magic ripped the world apart big time a few hundred years ago, and the common man is afraid of that happening again.

I guess a combo fear/hate thing.

 

[Pants]

The ONLY time I ever think that magic ruins any of my plans is when my players invoke the old Scry/Teleport/Nuke combo. Sure it's fun sometimes, but when it's the answer to every other situation, it gets a bit old.

 

[ForceUser]

In the Greyhawk campaign I play in, the DM tore us up with some advanced fiendish phase spiders. We had to use a rod of security followed by a plane shift to flee with our lives.

We had two weeks to think about what we were going to do; we knew we had to get past the spiders, there was no other option. We did some communes and a divination and found out that teleporting past the room they were guarding wasn't an option. After much reading and debate among the player group, I finally asked the DM if he would allow the party cleric to use the spells found in Manual of the Planes. He said yes.

The next session, we defeated the phase spiders without a single attack roll. The MotP spell ether storm creates this cool ethereal cyclone that flings creatures lurking on that plane miles away. So the cleric cast that spell, then we teleported into the spider room, and they were instantly flung far, far away from us. The DM has this look on his face that said "I didn't know you could do that" but shrugged, called the spell a bunch of bowlsheet , and on we went.

As a DM, you have to assume the party's going to use whatever resources they have at their disposal. Look through their spell selection. Think about ways to challenge them despite their powers. And most of all, don't get angry or frustrated when a player defeats your NPCs with a well-timed spell. That's what players do.

 

[A'koss]

Good thread...

Hmm, for me it comes down to a matter of setting. Monte is right in that you should gear HL adventures so that the PCs must use their HL abilities to succeed.

But there is a flipside to that.

Are those HL abilities what you want in your setting?
Are they approrpiate thematically for your campaign?
Are you having fun designing adventures around them?

Right now there is a spell solution to virually every problem and that creates HL characters with all the answers. I've run very high magic settings designed to accomodate them but it was like a sugar high that eventually went away. The problem with DMing late 20-somethings and 30-somethings is that everyone is acutely aware of how magic and level demographics should impact societies, the evolution of civilizations and the result is setting and style of play that the group seems to be growing out of.

So now we're in the middle of building a lowish-magic setting with "just enough" magic to make it interesting without introducing spell solutions for every problem.


Cheers,

A'koss.

 

[fusangite]

The reason I play D&D, as opposed to more story-focused, rules-light systems is because of the very phenomenon about which you're complaining: the PCs can thwart my schemes! I'd suggest that if you don't like that kind of dynamic in games, you consider a different game system which is less heavily codified and therefore strikes a different balance in the DM-player power dynamic.

In my view, the single greatest advantage of D&D is the face that the players can use the huge body of rules to force the game to go in a different direction than you planned. In my view, the greatest moments in my campaign are when just such a thing takes place -- when the players seize control of the narrative and start telling you a different story.

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by fusangite:

In my view, the single greatest advantage of D&D is the face that the players can use the huge body of rules to force the game to go in a different direction than you planned. In my view, the greatest moments in my campaign are when just such a thing takes place -- when the players seize control of the narrative and start telling you a different story.

Hmm, I hate to tell you this but the huge body of rules (read: spells) has little to no impact on characters taking innovative approaches to problems and turning them to their advantage. It's fundamental to *all* RPGs.

However, in D&D, when you start getting into high levels many challenges can be reduced to a "one spell solution" that isn't to everyone's liking. There's nothing wrong with this style of play but some gamers like the idea of say... travel not boiling down to teleport. IMC, PCs have to actually brave the broken wastelands of the Dirge to get to Ironhold (with many different options to approach it) or have to choose between the great glaciers and tall peaks of the Kroentel Mountains or try the well protected Stonewood Pass to get to elven lands in the Sea of Winters.

IMO, spells like commune, teleport, fly, scry, ethereal travel are great if appropriate for your setting but can be funbreakers for many others. It's easier to handwave travel away when apppropriate than to try and find some way for the PCs to take the "longer, but more interesting" route when teleport is readily available.


A'koss.

 

[Grishnak]

I know I said it would be my last post in the previous but I went to the web page posted by Lord Rasputin and found this thread. So at the end of the day most dm's will be faced with the said problems and they can deal with it as they see fit I did it my way other dm's will deal with it another way.
Maybe I posted the thread title slightly wrong and should have been along the lines of 'Do PC's rely on magic too heavily in adventures'

As a GURPS enthusiast often thrust into the position of Game Master, I do constant battle with those players who always play mages. A continual debate goes on (usually with me on one side and everyone else on the other) regarding the power of mages. I believe that even low-level mages are too powerful. Others in my group feel that a 100-point fighter could easily defeat a 100-point mage. But with the right combination of spells, a good player, and fair die rolls, the mage could, in my opinion, beat just about anything within reason.

For this reason, I offer the following tips to fellow GMs. I do not want to make playing a mage less fun. On the contrary, I hope to make mages more challenging and to allow a better game for all involved. If I'd had all these techniques at hand, I could have dealt with the problem without resorting to mass slaughter.

Know your mages' grimoires. On several occasions, I have had to curtail entire adventures because one mage had just the right spell for the circumstances. Knowing your mages' potential can be very helpful for coming up with challenging adventure possibilities. Mages should normally be able to assist the party in its efforts, but they should not be able to solve major problems by casting one spell. Very often, however, it is difficult to know every spell a mage has. A 125-point mage could have three pages of grimoire. But do your best to be aware of your mages' potential.

Limit starting spells. This is one of the easiest and most effective ways of limiting the power of mages. In my campaign, I have a general rule that mages can only take spells from the GURPS Basic Set. Other spells need strict GM approval. Enforced properly, this rule can help keep the mages balanced with the rest of the party.

One final point to Jenale, if you think that getting past every situation with magic is using your grey matter then I guess I must not be of the norm wizard pc by trying to use skills etc aswell as spells. I like something that challenges me not what spells I've read up on the previous week.

Anyway thank you all for your replies I've enjoyed the thread.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I don't usually have trouble with PC's ruining adventures. I usually give the NPC's good spell support and run them as effectively as the PC's run their casters.

We are a roleplay heavy group, so you can do some strange things to interfere with our plans. I still remember our DM having the crazy gnome in RttToEE jump into the fire pit in the Lesser Fire Temple. Our cleric had cast a fly spell on my paladin, and I ended up spending 3 or 4 rounds grappling the gnome in the fire pit to take him to safety. We lost 2 party members in that battle. It wasn't pretty. That is how we like to play.

I believe for a game like this, the roleplaying scenarios are as important as the mechanical preparation, especially so for high level encounters. There is nothing like having the NPC's attack not to kill the PC's, but to capture one for use in bargaining. PC's grow to expect certain things, so it is always good to throw the unexpected at them.