PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

[Kichwas]

A bit of a rant...
This is something I see a LOT of.

PCs in general lack the natural inborn defference to their betters that they should have in a fantasy society based around medieval concepts.

It's in my head at the moment because I've been reading The Wheel of Time novels and I plays a baronetess in a currently ongoing game.

By all rights in any game where commoner PCs and NPCs meet nobles they should be bowing, curtsying, and putting on their best manners whilst trying to find a way to keep their heads.

PCs and NPCs who are nobles should naturally expect this from commoners and if a group consists of nobles and commoners a rather strict hiearchy of command should naturally establish itself.

My current PC in fact is a minor noble who somewhat ran away with a bunch of commoners because she hated the social constraints. But that doesn't change them. It merely shapes them. She should be in a situation where she is constantly getting stuck 'ordering' people to not take her orders (sort of like Perrin in the Wheel of Time who keeps trying to insist he's not a lord and getting people saying "yes Lord Perrin, as you command Lord Perrin" then secretly raising his banners up behind him...).

She expects command, and those around her expect it from her. But she's frustrated by that command and envy's the lack of it.

Unless you get slapped with something like the French Revelution people will stick to this social convetion about as strongly as modern Americans stick to their ideas that they have a right to guns and freedoms of speach and religion.

Yet in most games I've played when the PCs meet the local lord it often turns into a staring match between players and DM or a bunch of PCs trying to make threats and brow beat the noble down.

Even if they outgunned a noble by a large margin; their social upbringing even among the most chaotic of them would cause them to fall into a sense of difference as naturally as people put on clothes...

Maybe this is different for Brittish gamers, or other peope from societies with strong class-based social systems.

My gaming experience here in the states has shown me a lot of players who simply cannot understand the idea of a chain of command or of not being equals. Or who feel such a concept would be a damper to them enjoyment of it all rather than an enhancment to the 'simulation'.

It's been even worse in the games I've run than in those I've played in; but maybe that's because I'm seeing it from the other side of the table then.

 

[Ravellion]

A bit of a "me too" post, but I think I'll have to agree on this one. Of course, I, as a DM, once crashed a campaign to a screeching halt because of something similar to this. Big powerful mage wasn't about to be intimidated by PCs, so it basically was, "off with their heads"

Rav

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

First off, good point, Arcady! I know what you mean. This topic needs to be brought up.

Many players simply don't comprehend the medieval class system and end up getting into all kinds of trouble because they refuse to "defer to their betters." They think just because they can kill an orc king they can kill a baron in their homeland. Sure, they could, but it would be murder and they would become hunted fugitives under sentence of death... Similarly, you can't (barring some juicy blackmail or other advantage) argue with, humiliate, insult or threaten the nobility. If you do, you get "thrown in irons" at best and get "the chop" at worst. These people are born into power and expect to be treated with courtesy and respect for their position. It's all they've ever known and "the way it should be." Anyone who barges in and upsets their apple cart will have the full brunt of that authority used against them before such "dangerous ideas" can spread and "infect the common folk." As a player, I have always tried to defer to nobles in the game, even if I speak poorly of them behind their back, doing it to their face seems like remarkably poor roleplaying and a very bad idea for my character's continued well-being. And when playing nobility, I am quick to remind others of my position and throw my weight around like a pompous windbag. They may resent it, but they tend to act properly around me, at least in public...

 

[S'mon]

I'm British, I agree that this is a problem. Currently in a round-table game I play a Squire (F2) and I do have some trouble being appropriately deferential to the NPC Baron who keeps sending me on suicide missions and rewarding me with a couple of gp (literally!) if I'm lucky.
But it's a bigger problem with the American players I PBEM with. The worstest is an old peasant woman PC (Expert class - the player's secondary PC) who demands to be called 'Lady Edda' by everyone, superiors included - this in a typical medieval setting!! I explained that this would likely get her hanged in short order.

 

[S'mon]

I remember watching Saving Private Ryan with my American wife. I was astounded when, early in the mission, the Tom Hanks Captain's men started talking back to him, questioning his orders, etc - this to an experienced combat officer they knew to be a competent leader. I was gobsmacked - I could (maybe) see British troops conceivably doing this with a total greenback 2nd Lt, but never with a veteran Captain in the middle of a combat zone! Yet my wife saw nothing strange in it.

Definitely, egalitarianism in US society is very strong, and it can make it hard for American players to really understand a feudal society, even the 'loose' kind of quasi-medieval feudalism typical of a D&D society.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

The worstest is an old peasant woman PC (Expert class - the player's secondary PC) who demands to be called 'Lady Edda' by everyone, superiors included - this in a typical medieval setting!! I explained that this would likely get her hanged in short order.

Stone the crows! That is terrible news, guv'nuh.

"Old Edda" sounds much better for the bloody hag in my book. Cheerio!

 

[Plane Sailing]

Maybe this is different for Brittish gamers, or other peope from societies with strong class-based social systems.

Nope, no different for British gamers in my experience. Those kind of elements of the class system existed in the early 20th century (look at the way the deaths on the Titanic were reported, for instance), but by the end of the 20th there had been a sort of volte-face

I agree that its difficult to persuade players to play "in-character" with campaign culture.

One way would be to reward people - 10xp every time they behave appropriately to their betters. Call it a verisimiltude award, and let the players keep track of it themselves if you can. At the end of the session check up how many times everyone has behaved appropriately and award the bonus xps. It is a small amount, so as levels increase it becomes less significant, but all players like getting xps - and you might just end up with commoners falling over one another to kow-tow to any nobles around!

Cheers

 

[S'mon]

Stone the crows! That is terrible news, guv'nuh.

"Old Edda" sounds much better for the bloody hag in my book. Cheerio!

LOL very Spike-meets-Giles.

 

[Kichwas]

Re: Re: PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

Nope, no different for British gamers in my experience. Those kind of elements of the class system existed in the early 20th century (look at the way the deaths on the Titanic were reported, for instance), but by the end of the 20th there had been a sort of volte-face

Well at least you're all more likely to even understand that such a concept exists as nobility.

I honestly don't think most Americans even have a simple grasp of it. Self likely included to a large degree.

So I don't expect players to be good at roleplaying it. But I wish they'd at least try.

 

[S'mon]

Another PBEM tale: I ran a scenario where a bunch of male mercenary PCs were hired and put under the command of a female fighter-aristocrat PC. All the combatant male nobles in the area were off campaigning in the war, so the female PC aristo was the only person competent to lead a mercenary force against the evil monsters from the Underdark attacking the villages.

The aristocrat, Faoil, had some psychological problems (fear of the dark, mostly) due to a traumatic prior scenario, but she was fairly competent and had good ideas. The standard 'societal' attitude for the mercs would be 'she's a woman, but she _is_ a noble" and do what she said, grumbling maybe. Instead they ignored her instructions, blundered in and got themselves hacked up by the monsters.

I got the impression that real-life sexism was much more important to them than in-character deference!