PCs using their abilities - a favor to the party?

[Primitive Screwhead]

Unless it's a two player game the cleric's in a minority.

So the majority gets to play how they want and the minority has to just accept it? I think that goes counter to the concept of team play in which the entire party is working together, IC and OOC....

Not using CR+4 IS tweaking. The DMG calls for 5% of all encounters to be CR+4 or higher.

Check, I should have said "exclusively CR+4 encounters".. ya know, the ones you 'need' to be at full hit points to survive....
been in a couple games like that..

 

[Doug McCrae]

So the majority gets to play how they want and the minority has to just accept it?

Welcome to democracy.

 

[Campbell]

As long as the player isn't being a complete jerk about it I don't have any issues with them not being a complete team player. If they are being jerk I have a novel solution : I say "Next game you buy the food. Now quit being a jerk."

 

[Zurai]

Check, I should have said "exclusively CR+4 encounters".. ya know, the ones you 'need' to be at full hit points to survive....
been in a couple games like that..

Yeowch. I've never been in a game with exclusively rough fights. I guess I'm fortunate in that. Though I can't be sure whether that's intentional or not since I've had DMs design encounters that they intended to be hard and had us breeze through them.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Welcome to democracy.

Good thing my game table isn't a democracy

The preferable answer is for all parties involved in the team event to compromise to a degree. That means if a player wishes to RP the IC link to a diety's good graces, the other players should be willing to RP along, with tithes or short prayers.. or even conversion as a 'follower' of the Cleric's faith.... or if able to, play the bitter athiest/other religion and *refuse* treatment

THe whole of point of the game is to have fun, and if play style regarding healing stifles fun..then something needs changed for that game table.


The exclusive CR+4 games I was in tended to be a result of a DM miscalculating the groups effectiveness and deciding to ramp up the power of the bad guys as a counter... rather than keeping the CRs roughly equivilent and using tactics/terrain and combo encounters to shake things up.
Of course, we kinda brought it on ourselves a couple times...

 

[Victim]

What's wrong with these groups? If the characters get along fairly well, then cooperation should follow. And if the characters don't get along, then why are they in the group together? Without at least some teamwork, what benefit is there to having a party?

potions are fantastic. But, what do you do after 10th level? A 3d8+3 potion isn't going to keep your barbarian alive when he's getting whacked by that giant for 100 points of damage every round. And, if he pulls back out of combat, the giant steps up and tees up on the next PC, who can't take that kind of punishment and dies.

Since healing 100 points a round isn't particularly sustainable, I'd hope the cleric considers other options besides spending his action every round to apply bandaids. Typically, dead giants don't do much damage, and clerics aren't exactly lacking in offensive options especially by 10+ levels. The cleric can also cast some buff spells ahead of time to reduce the damage the group takes.

Moreover, it's not like non fighters are so terribly fragile in DnD. It's hardly a given the rogue or cleric will have less AC than a fighter, and emphasizing Con goes a long way towards making up for a weak HD size. Healing spells, with a few exceptions, are touch range anyway so the cleric is pretty much always going to be on the front lines.

Finally, why should the cleric be the one who suffers because the barbarian wanted to upgrade his magic sword instead of AC boosting gear? Of course, that means less damage, which can mean longer fights, which also means more damage taken and more spells used.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The preferable answer is for all parties involved in the team event to compromise to a degree. That means if a player wishes to RP the IC link to a diety's good graces, the other players should be willing to RP along, with tithes or short prayers.. or even conversion as a 'follower' of the Cleric's faith.... or if able to, play the bitter athiest/other religion and *refuse* treatment

And then refuse to adventure with the cleric.

Why should they "play along" only so far as inconveniencing their own character? Why is your suggestion of compromise everyone doing what the cleric wants? That's not compromise, that's one player getting his or her way. The cleric player interpreting his god's will to include the group as a whole accomplishing their goals and the others not playing characters actively hostile to the clerics religion is a compromise. Tithes, prayers, conversions or no healing is not.

But thank you for addressing the subject or the thread and not a separate argument about battle clerics vs healbots.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

And then refuse to adventure with the cleric.
...
Why is your suggestion of compromise everyone doing what the cleric wants?

I see the wonders of internet language is getting in the way again..

Yes, refusing to adventure with the cleric is indeed an option.. so one player drops the character that isn't fitting the group dynamic and brings in one that fits the compromise better for the group. I have had more than my share of these, both as a GM and a player. My favorite of these was a WEG SW Game where my failed Jedi was so good... the group ditched him... {I had focused on Diplomancy/telepath and no one ever knew that I *did* anything... IC... they just had a real easy time getting through checkpoints and other 'social' encounters. So, the group voted me off the transport. Fortunately at a spacedock }

No, you are reading the extreme options into my suggestion that I did not place there.
- The Cleric's player has to understand that the character is adventuring with a group who may not follow thier diety, but need to be cared for for either IC concerns of showing the grace of the diety or OOC concerns about being part of the team. Part of the Clerics 'role' in the group is to provide divine healing.
- The other players have to understand that Cleric's tend to have links to some sort of 'faith', and its easier to approach a need for healing with a "Cleric, by the grace of Grog..heal me!" than a "Yo... Heal-bot.. do your thing"... and perhaps make IC choices that limit thier reliance on the Clerics 'miracles'.

When I say compromise, I mean a true compromise.. not one side gets thier way. The kinda sad thing is that there is really no downside of adding the RP depth of character faith into the mix. It adds depth and plot hooks to the game. Always a good thing in my book!

Personally I view the Clerics healing as kind-of Emergency kits and prefer characters to rely on other sources or even go without being 'topped up' instead of relying of the 'miracles' for day to day drudgery. Of course, the RAW makes this hard as the Heal skill as written becomes pointless at about level 3. But that might be a topic for another thread.

Some stuff in 3.5 has sorta fixed this {Dragon Shaman and Touch of Healing reserve feat.. both of which might end up in my campaign next session}, removing the cost of spell slots for out of combat healing to a point.

Maybe 4e will improve on this, making natural healing more effective.

I also play Clerics as the de facto leader in any group... the character type is most fitted for having a concrete mission and the motivation to follow through with it. While I understand others play them differently {such as the Cleric in my current game}, and its also one of the reasons I don't often play a Cleric. I much prefer the role of supporting cast {and by that I mean Thief or Bard }

But thank you for addressing the subject or the thread and not a separate argument about battle clerics vs healbots.

np..., I try to stick to the OP... even when I *do* read all the intervening pages!
Makes for a better discussion anyway!

 

[Desdichado]

Hobo - what did you do to get around having no healer?

Lot's of different things. The simplest is to not structure the adventure in such a way that it needs to be played "all out." If the PC's can retreat and regroup when they're sufficiently banged up, and come back again and tackle the adventure fresh, or from another angle, then I tried to allow that to be a reasonable response.

Naturally, to satisfy my own sense of verisimilitude, the adventure wouldn't just go "on hold" for them, and things would be changed during their time off, but I didn't change things so significantly that they couldn't actually achieve a successful completion of the adventure.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

The Cleric's player has to understand that the character is adventuring with a group who may not follow thier diety, but need to be cared for for either IC concerns of showing the grace of the diety or OOC concerns about being part of the team. Part of the Clerics 'role' in the group is to provide divine healing.
- The other players have to understand that Cleric's tend to have links to some sort of 'faith', and its easier to approach a need for healing with a "Cleric, by the grace of Grog..heal me!" than a "Yo... Heal-bot.. do your thing"... and perhaps make IC choices that limit thier reliance on the Clerics 'miracles'.

When I say compromise, I mean a true compromise.. not one side gets thier way. The kinda sad thing is that there is really no downside of adding the RP depth of character faith into the mix. It adds depth and plot hooks to the game. Always a good thing in my book!

It can be done, but it takes the right kind of players, not always something easy to come by.

Personally I view the Clerics healing as kind-of Emergency kits and prefer characters to rely on other sources or even go without being 'topped up' instead of relying of the 'miracles' for day to day drudgery. Of course, the RAW makes this hard as the Heal skill as written becomes pointless at about level 3. But that might be a topic for another thread.

This also requires the DM to shift expectations as well. If it becomes a slow attrition of HP over the course of an adventure, by the time the PCs reach the climactic battle, the DM can no longer run the encounter with the same expectations as they would for a full HP party.