D&D 4E Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted

[AbdulAlhazred]

Funny, normally this discussion of problems with passive, wallflower, non-motivated players comes up in the context of sandbox play! Sandbox play where the GM improvs in response to player input sounds awfully, awfully like this apparently Dramatist approach. I'm starting to feel like the Yin of sandbox and Yang of dramatist play (here, PSF) are merely aspects of a great universal RPG truth!

On the general point re passive players - if Bangs are thrown at the party, the idea is that they have to respond somehow to the event, so the need for truly self-motivated players should be less than with sandbox play. With sandbox I find you only need one or maybe two real Instigator players in the group - in fact too many can make a single-party game really hard to run, because the PCs will always be shrapnelling off in different directions. I think PSF is even less demanding - the only way a group will fail at PSF is if they are all Turtles, or the group is dominated by a Turtle, who reject all offers, who find ingenious ways to avoid interacting with Bangs, etc. Turtle play really really sucks; it was my misfortune to once run a high level 3e campaign where a charismatic Turtle player got everyone else to go along with him, and it was a very unpleasant and draining experience.
But normally-passive players, the sort who have been trained by Adventure Paths not to think outside the box, are bad in sandbox games but I don't think are normally a problem in PSF play using Bangs. "Three orcs with swords come through the door - what do you do?!" - The normally-passive player will have no problem mustering a response (the serious Turtle will respond - 'That could never have happened, because...') - normally passive players just act as if they were on AP rails and give whatever they think the 'expected' response is, and that works ok.

Hehe, when I had a mega-turtle I just did things like have a legion of orcs show up and siege the town. Not much way they can avoid that sort of general universal catastrophe sort of "plot hook". Of course that's scene framing with a bulldozer, but those big tortoise ARE pretty heavy...

 

[Umbran]

The rules are simple - if a thread is closed, you don't reopen that discussion for a while.

There was a reason for the thread closure - continuing the discussion immediately just allows those reasons to perpetuate to the new thread. So, please, leave it be for a while. Thank you.

Edit: By the way - lack of patience and cursing at mods suggests folks were were a bit too invested in the discussion to keep perspective and a clear head. If you cannot wait just a few days for things to cool down, the problem isn't with the moderation, folks.

 

[Umbran]

So, folks, here's what we are going to do. We are going to reopen this thread.

But, there's got to be some understanding here. There will be commentary from folks who like and dislike the ideas present. You must be tolerant of both sides. You should treat those with dissenting views with respect. If you feel someone doesn't really merit a response - just don't respond. In other words, conduct yourself like mature adults who actually care that there's a person on the other side of the ether.

Okay? Good. Let the discussion continue...

 

[Storminator]

I'm about to make a couple NPCs for my game. In previous times I'd have started with the NPC's description, motivation, and some way to make the NPC memorable at the table.

This time I've decided that I really want to have a scene involving an NPC and one of the PCs, motivated by the PC back story and in game play. I'm thinking of the NPC as a prop or part of the scene frame. Has anyone else done this? If so, how did it go?

PS

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I'm about to make a couple NPCs for my game. In previous times I'd have started with the NPC's description, motivation, and some way to make the NPC memorable at the table.

This time I've decided that I really want to have a scene involving an NPC and one of the PCs, motivated by the PC back story and in game play. I'm thinking of the NPC as a prop or part of the scene frame. Has anyone else done this? If so, how did it go?

PS

Yeah. Obviously pick a PC who's player is invested in a good fun backstory. I've done it a few times.

 

[S'mon]

If your Beliefs/ethos are opaque, or so much rot, to you then I cannot challenge it and expect you to respond in kind.

Yeah - you have to have an internal aspect on your PC to play your PC as more than a playing piece. Players who treat D&D like a board game and their PC as a pawn... - I really don't like being at the table with those guys, especially as GM - it sucks out all the fun for me. You have to play the role - it says so on the tin.

I just started a new campaign with six strangers, and I was worried I might get one of those guys, but no - all my players seem great, they know who their PCs are and identify with them. I have to say that I have never had a big problem with this in 4e though, only one player has ever been like that, and he's a longterm regular at the Meetup who plays all his PCs as pawns. I think 4e is very good at giving you pointers on 'thematic weight' for your PC - who are you, what do you care about, etc. I don't have a problem with pre-3e or Pathfinder Beginner Box either, but I have found some players with 3e or full PF kinda get lost in the crunch and see the character as very much a sort of purpose-built tool, rather than a person. Usually this is only a problem with experienced players, though - one reason to prefer newbies.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Storminator If I'm reading you correctly, I have. One in particular that comes to mind is when one of my PCs was looking for his old First Mate (PC was a former naval captain wrongfully discharged without honors) who had done even worse than the PC. He was a lecherous drunk who was spending all of his "go away money" from the Navy on drinking himself into a stupor, gambling away all of his money, and spending each night at a new brothel (effectively homeless). But he was as good a sailor and first mate as one could be. The PC wanted to forcefully rouse him from his sad state and needed him to man the deck and the crew of the groups' ship. The stakes were the "the honor and life of his former first mate", "the success or potential failure of their crossing a particularly dangerous part of the sea" and "the ultimate redemption of the PC at hand". It was two separate Skill Challenges; an investigatory challenge to locate the NPC and then the social encounter to rouse/sway/convince him to sober up and man the deck!

Is that what you mean?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I do this all the time. Now whether what I do would technically fall under the concept of "Scene-Framing" I have no idea... as those kinds of demarcations between different styles of play never really mattered to me.

That being said... I'm a DM that provokes scenes with my players via the Offer/Accept improvisation paradigm. I'm just as much of a participant as any of my players in deciding when scenes or event or plots can start and stop, and thus occasionally I will most definitely make an Offer to one of my players to do a scene involving their PC and an NPC that shows up (by my instigation, rather than the PC finding the NPC on their own). This oftentimes is because (like you are thinking about) the PC's backstory might warrant an appearance of a specific NPC to push their backstory forward. So I will Offer up the NPC's appearance and the player can then choose to Accept the Offer and delve into the scene. Or not Accept it and blow the NPC off if they so choose because they're doing something else and more important to them at the time.

But even then... in my mind the player is STILL Accepting the scene Offer, by choosing not to engage with the NPC. My NPC goes off on his merry way... but I (as DM) don't forget he got blown off. That's now a part of this NPC's story. That will have consequences in the future. And you can be darn sure the player will probably see that NPC return some time (probably less happy with the PC than they were the first time).

And that's what I mean about there being NO "unimportant" Offers. Once an Offer is made... it's usually now a part of the game world regardless of what it was, and how it was reacted to. And this goes for me as a DM as well as them as players. Anything we Offer up during the course of play will be remembered and used in the future (more often than not as a running gag that reoccurs throughout the life of the campaign.)

 

[S'mon]

I'm thinking of the NPC as a prop or part of the scene frame. Has anyone else done this? If so, how did it go?

I find it very tricky to pull off, actually - done it a couple times recently where I had a cool scene/interaction in my head, rather than start with the NPC organically and see what happens. I think it's really difficult to have the scene in your head come out effectively in play, whereas stuff that just develops organically, I find flows a lot easier. So, I don't have much advice, but I'd say: better to start with the cool NPC, not the cool scene.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think 4e is very good at giving you pointers on 'thematic weight' for your PC - who are you, what do you care about, etc. I don't have a problem with pre-3e or Pathfinder Beginner Box either, but I have found some players with 3e or full PF kinda get lost in the crunch and see the character as very much a sort of purpose-built tool, rather than a person. Usually this is only a problem with experienced players, though - one reason to prefer newbies.

I've had very similar experiences as you have outlined here. Very similar.

Your last sentence is very sad but I've found it to be true as well. It seems that there is a cross-section of the gamer populace that becomes almost "nihilistic" (if there can be such a thing) in their gaming philosophy. I don't know if they've had their "heart" beaten out of them or if they are just bored with the prospect of investing creative effort; like they just consider it gratuitous foreplay or something. Newbies don't suffer from this.