Penalty to saving throw : Stunning until the end of encounter?

[Shin Okada]

If I am understanding the rule correctly, unless those are from the same source, penalties do stack.

And saving throws do not auto-success on natural 20.

Well, there seem to be a lot of ways to give penalty to saving throws.

#　Wizard
Spell Focus feat = -2 penalty to saves against his spells
Orb of Imposition =　- (Wizard's Wisdom mod) penalty to one cast of spell
Orb of Ultimate Imposition/Orb of Fickle Fate = -1 to -6 penalty to one cast of spell

# Invoker/Hammer of Vengeance
-2 penalty to saves (any enemy within 5 squares, while the Hammer of Vengeance is not bloodied)

#　Rogue/Death Dealer Paragon path (MP)
-2 penalty to saves (adjacent enemy)

# Warlock/God Fragment
Deific Doom (L 12 daily from AP) = -2 penalty while within the zone (close burst 2). The zone moves with the PC and lasts till the end of encounter (no hit needed).

#　Warlord
Disheartening Flurry (L 9 daily from MP) = -2 penalty until end of that encounter (effect, no hit needed)


I guess there will be more ways to give penalty to saves which lasts at least until the end of encounter.

Now, if the wizard hits an enemy with a power which makes them stun (save ends), such as Prismatic Spray, if the cumulative penalty is -16 or worse, even a solo monster never recover from stunning condition, right? Does that mean an auto-win?

 

[Mort_Q]

Does that mean an auto-win?

That would depend a great deal on the DM.

 

[borg286]

remember that Orb of Fickle Fate has a save ends where most of your feats don't apply to that save. Thus if you use Fickle, the monster can save from that, thus opening the door to a possibility of saving from the original condition.

Pherenic crown adds another -1 to -3 I think.
Cunning sword: Property: -2 to all saves of effects delivered through weapon
staff of earth: -enhancement to saves with powers that have the slowed or immobilized condition

With new items it's now possible for a non-wizard to stun-lock an opponent.

 

[Mengu]

Does that mean an auto-win?

It's an auto-lose for the DM for allowing it to get out of hand.

Honestly, how would the players like it if the monsters could stun them with a save ends condition at -16 penalty?

I've house ruled save penalties not to stack, I just use the highest penalty. I've also house ruled stun to be dazed and -5 penalty to attack roll, but that's another topic.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yup, this is kind of old hat. Orbizards have been able to stun lock since the game was released. It has gotten worse though, you can now do it at quite a bit lower level and now you have non-wizards doing it as well.

In fact I believe technically you can get an auto-hit stunlock at level 8. Its trivial to do it by level 15, you don't even need OoI.

The upshot? House rule that save penalties don't stack. That still allows for an orbizard to potentially get up to -10 or so IIRC by level 30. Still ugly, but at least your level 30 solos have a chance not to be round 1 toast.

 

[Votan]

The upshot? House rule that save penalties don't stack. That still allows for an orbizard to potentially get up to -10 or so IIRC by level 30. Still ugly, but at least your level 30 solos have a chance not to be round 1 toast.

This is extremely sensible.

I am also pretty sure that Houseruling that a 20 is an auto-succeed on saves would do no great harm to the system and make perfect "lock-downs" impossible.

 

[BobTheNob]

Im not fond of the penalties dont stack approach. It discourages a subset of garnering potency. It makes the game feel like its "lost something"

Our houserule (specifically penned to counter orbizard abuse) is that the required number to roll for a saving throws is calculated as RAW, however
* A roll of 16+ is an automatic success
* A roll of 4 or less is an automatic failure

That way, if you overstack you penalty to enemy saves or bonus to party saves, there is a point at which the benefits cut out

 

[jgsugden]

My house rule: On a saving throw, a natural role of 16 through 20 is a success. I always want at least a 25% chance of pullign through. A significant chance to make a save is part of the D&D 4E system. If you negate that chance, the game becomes boring.

 

[Nifft]

I like the "penalties don't stack" idea, too.

The best Orbizard fix I've heard -- and someone jump in because I don't know who to credit -- is this:

Orb of Imposition Power (Orb of Imposition)
Encounter • Implement
Free Action • Interrupt
Trigger: A creature makes a saving throw against an effect imposed by you.
Effect: That creature takes a penalty to the saving throw equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Requirement: You must wield an orb to use this ability.

Special: Or you can use the boring "extend-an-at-will" effect. That's not broken.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Saeviomagy]

Penalties don't stack is a good rule for other areas too, most notably attack roll penalties.