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Message: <blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 6345511" data-attributes="member: 2629">Perception is the skill to let you know if something exists.Once you know it exists: survival, insight and investigation let you understand more about it.  A DM might require no perception (but require an investigation/etc...) roll if the clues are easy to see, but hard to understand.  On the other hand, if there is a small detail that is hard to spot, but has obvious significance (like a smear of blood on a red carpet), the DM might not require an investigation roll, but would require a perception roll to spot.A pit trap or pressure plate might require both a perception roll to notice, and a survivial/investigation roll to figure out what it does.Example: The PCs are traveling through the forest.  A hidden pit is in front of them.  One of the front rank PCs has a passive perception high enough to note that there is something off.  The DM tells that player that he has noticed that there are leaves piled oddly on the trail ahead.  The DM rolls a check for the players to determine if he figures out what it is.  However, that PC does not have a high nature, investigation or survivial and fails.  He stops the party and points to the pile of leaves and tells the rogue in the back of the party to check it out.  The rogue investigates and determines that it is a pit trap.  He uses deception and tells the dwarf it is just a pile of leaves.  The dwarf walks across and falls into the pit.  Much hilarity follows.Another example: The PCs are sitting in a tavern getting a good drink on.  There are rotting corpses piled in a closet, their pungent smell disguised by fragrances that the murderers left behind.  The high passive perception PC notes that there are a lot of flies in the room.  However, he doesn't have a high enough investigation or nature roll to note that this may mean that there is carrion nearby.  The DM tells him that there are a lot of flies buzzing around his mead, and makes no reference to the rest of the group of anything amiss.  Another example: Bob has a high survival score, but lousy perception.  He has been trained how to follow a trail, but is lousy at spotting the signs of a trail by himself.  As the group tries to follow a trail, he might need the help of the keen eyed elf druid to spot the signs of passage, but he is the guy that tells the elf druid what to be on the look out to see... Another example: The PCs come across an overturned wagon.  The high investigation PC takes a look.  The DM determines that there is no need for a perception roll because everything that needs to be seen to figure out what took place is right there in front of everyone... you just need to put the puzzle pieces together correctly.</blockquote>

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