perception of OD&D/AD&D as random deathtraps

[diaglo]

Discuss!

the party approaches a bandit hideout, an old building overgrown with vines. they know the bandits are in this area. they have found tracks going to and coming from the building's front door.

they also stumble upon a hidden hatch 30 yards from the building. they explore.

does the thief go down first? does the thief check for traps? does the party bring torches?

does it bother them that the bandits may have a protection on another way into the building?


the party finds a tunnel. it leads directly to the building. at the end of the tunnel they find a ladder leading up. do they again check for traps?


does the trap kill most of the party lined up in order along the tunnel.


um... does the thief survive. yes. he didn't go down into the tunnel.

 

[Midknightsun]

This is purely my own experience from 1e, but I clearly remember one character, a half orc, who died numerous times. (6, I think). It got old fast, but i honestly think our DM back then was pretty good too. Also had a paladin that bit it, and a Drow Fighter that kicked at least once. I can't remember all the others, truthfully, but I know my characters died a lot.

Now in 3.5 I had a Soulknife kick twice (and then retired) and a Warlock bite the dust (baleful polymorph blows). I've also played more characters in 3.5, so at least in my experience, the death toll wasn't as staggering.

I'd say, IME, 1e was a little more brutal, but at high levels 3.5 can get very unforgiving as well. I also think it was more expected in earlier editions that you keep the character you started with (do everything to try to bring them back), whereas in 3.5 it doesn't seem to be the case. Actually, I'm fine with that. I hated the feeling of being pressured into running a character that just wasn't fun to play anymore.

 

[delericho]

I think a lot of it is "Tomb of Horrors", and a large number of less talented DMs who tried to craft their own death-trap dungeons in the same style. Certainly, adventures such as Ravenloft, and the "Giants" series don't seem to have the same sort of arbitrary lethality.

Then again, it has been a long time since I read through any pre-3e D&D modules.

I must say, one thing I would really quite like to see is a properly designed 3e deathtrap dungeon built with a rigorous application of fairness. Unfortunately, all of the adventures in this style I have seen seem to achieve their lethality by throwing out any guidelines on encounter design, and/or quite often by going beyond the rules in a manner that seems not to be supported by the 3e RAW.

 

[Desdichado]

I don't think there's anything about the editions and their rules per se that obligate that paradigm of play style, but I do think a lot of people had that paradigm regardless.

That's one of the reasons I left D&D in the mid-80s to play other games; I was frustrated with that kind of play even back then. But looking back at the rules now, if I'd had different groups, we could have played the kind of games I like now with the rules if we'd wanted to.

I think newer editions (3e+) more actively support the kind of game that I like, but at the same time, I've never been one to be too concerned by letting the rules straight-jacket me into a paradigm that I don't have. Overcoming the inertia of your fellow players' paradigms, though---that's more challenging.

 

[SavageRobby]

I mentioned a similar perception/attitude that I noticed on a different thread where 2-3 of the posters were most vehement in their disdain for so called "old school gaming". All I could think was that these folks had never played an old-school game... or they had a REALLY crappy and vindictive DM that was using an obscure dragon article or some tongue in cheek passage from AD&D DMG to justify being a jerk to their players.

QFT.


I can think of a number of folks who post here regularly who seem to have been seriously traumatized by some bad DMing, and who view anything related to old school gaming or DM fiat with what can only be characterized as pathological hate. Of course, many of them seem to display the same behavioral tendencies I see in the worst kind of rules-lawyers, so maybe it wasn't just their old DMs after all. I dunno.



I do know, like others have mentioned, that most of the "save or die" effects weren't random in the application, they were as a result of PC choice. Draw a card from the magic deck? Drink from a magic fountain? Open the chest without checking for traps first? Those were all actions that could get you killed, sure, but they were also actions the player could control.

 

[Hussar]

Well, as was mentioned, there were a number of rather arbitrary death traps in 1e modules. Merric very rightly points to EX 2 (never played EX 1) which is an incredibly lethal module.

As far as which edition is more lethal? Well, when I ran the World's Largest Dungeon, I averaged a PC death every 3 sessions. Then again, there's some old Dragon articles (and Glyfair can point to them) where the writer talks about going through literally hundreds of PC's. (OD&D I believe)

There's another point to remember as well. At higher levels, 1e PC's were very, very powerful compared to what you found in the Monster Manual. It's not too much of a stretch for a 10th level fighter to take on a dragon by himself and win. IME, the only source of PC death at higher levels was save or die effects. No one died of claw poisoning, but, we sure died of bloody potion poisoning enough times.

 

[papakee]

My experience has been more TPKs and character deaths in my 3.x play than in my 1st edition play. Maybe the death traps caused us to be more careful, maybe the threat of level drain caused us to think twice before attacking an undead, maybe the lack of magic availability caused us to run when we got down to single digit HPs.....there were 10' poles in 1st ed for a reason.

 

[Korgoth]

I do know, like others have mentioned, that most of the "save or die" effects weren't random in the application, they were as a result of PC choice. Draw a card from the magic deck? Drink from a magic fountain? Open the chest without checking for traps first? Those were all actions that could get you killed, sure, but they were also actions the player could control.

Definitely. Drinking from the magical fountain, messing with the weird machinery, etc.: these are all calculated risks. You might get something really good, or you might get hosed. Take the chance, or (as the advice in the 1e PHB implies) just blow it off and finish your mission. But if you do take the chance, get ready for what you get. I guess putting putting your head in the maw (into which no light can penetrate!) of the big green monster face in ToH is a calculated risk, too... but if you calculate that you should do that, you must have been using some fuzzy math!

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, 1e abounds with save-or-die situations. I mean, go through the Monster Manual and count the creatures with poison, petrifaction, breath weapons that'll kill an archmage even if he passes his save, and whatever. If an undead creature touches you it'll seriously ruin your day. If you touch the poison needle in that trap, you'd better use your luckiest d20 because nobody cares how many hp you have... and then there are all the lovely cursed magic items, too.

And there was no guarantee of a nice safe ride in the older 1e dungeons. There's an assumed body-count; you WILL NOT play through any of those without a death or two.

But that's the paradigm. You have henchmen ready to replace you and raise dead spells on tap, and if the worst comes to the worst it only takes 5 minutes to roll another generic fighter and get straight back into play. I mean, it's not a system for the method acting crowd, is it?

If you're the sort of person who falls in love with each character and writes out three pages of background with a family tree about how your father was a wood elf minstrel from one place and your mother was a druidess from another and they gave you a pet unicorn when you were three, do not play 1e!

I've said this before but it bears repeating here. In your average 1e party, nobody knows or cares if their character has a sister, but you can bet someone's got a 10' pole.

For me the fact that characters are a bit more disposable adds excitement. The outcome's always in doubt. You really could lose your character. Maybe tonight. Maybe now.

 

[Tarek]

What I got from that post was that ehren was saying "It's easy to kill characters; just put in random deathtraps" rather than "1e is full of random deathtraps."