D&D 5E Perception vs. Investigation in UA Traps Revisited - A problem again?!

[Caliban]

Perception is about perceiving things, not finding them.

*sigh*

Investigation is about investigating things, not finding them. See? I can play that game too.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

[MENTION=284]Caliban[/MENTION] I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Do what you want in you game, the purpose of the two skills is quite clear.

 

[Caliban]

[MENTION=284]Caliban[/MENTION] I stopped reading after the first paragraph. Do what you want in you game, the purpose of the two skills is quite clear.

See, that's what I thought. But then some jerks jumped all over me and started bringing up all these pedantic, nit-picky issues that don't really address the topic. Now some guy is trying to imply I'm stupid because I don't 100% agree with him. He even got huffy and stopped reading the post where I said he had some valid points. Talk about childish.

Hint: If it was really "quite clear" there wouldn't be a thread discussing it in the first place.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

See, that's what I thought. But then some jerks jumped all over me and started bringing up all these pedantic, nit-picky issues that don't really address the topic. Now some guy is trying to imply I'm stupid because I don't 100% agree with him. He even got huffy and stopped reading the post where I said he had some valid points. Talk about childish.

Hint: If it was really "quite clear" there wouldn't be a thread discussing it in the first place.

Plenty of very clear stuff still has threads arguing about what it means.

And no one has gotten "huffy", or implied that you're stupid.

you are, however, now making direct personal attacks.

 

[Caliban]

And no one has gotten "huffy", or implied that you're stupid.

You've been condescending since your first post and your last post did exactly that. "...the purpose of the skills is quite clear." If it's "quite clear" and I don't see it that way, then you are saying that I'm stupid for not understanding it.

you are, however, now making direct personal attacks.

Hmm...attack me, deny it, and then cry wolf when you get a reaction. Classic.

 

[cmad1977]

The skills are pretty clear.


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[Caliban]

The skills are pretty clear.

I think they are too. Yet people insist on disagreeing with me about them. Strange.

And despite how clear everyone says they are, everyone seems to interpret them slightly differently. Most of us use them similarly, but not exactly the same way.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

You've been condescending since your first post and your last post did exactly that. "...the purpose of the skills is quite clear." If it's "quite clear" and I don't see it that way, then you are saying that I'm stupid for not understanding it.



Hmm...attack me, deny it, and then cry wolf when you get a reaction. Classic.

I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt, and assume you aren't screwing with me.

In which case, I apologize for coming accross as condescending, and seeming to attack you. Neither was remotely what I meant to do.

 

[lkwpeter]

CAN WE PLEASE STOP DISCUSSING THE DEFINITIONS OF PERCEPTION AND INVESTIGATION?

The skills are clear. And they are even clearer when reading the UA explanation I quoted.

The problem is not the usage of any of those. The problem is that the Unearthed Arcana Traps Revisited article only asks for either one check (Perception OR Investigation) depending of the type of trap (e.g. trip wire = Perception; faint smoke shape = Investigation).

My intention was to point out that it is not consistent to ask for only one of those checks. Instead, any trap must usually include both checks:


Examples:

• Trip Wire: The wire is very hard to spot, so the Perception check might be around DC 20. After you have noticed it, it is quite clear that it's a piece of a trap. So investigating it would require a really low DC of 5.
• Doorknob triggers trap: The scuffs and wear pattern require advanced deduction to find out this is a trap and how it works. So the Investigation check might be around DC 20. But realizing them is still no auto success, because a character doesn't realize any detail of its surroundings automatically. So it would require a medium DC of 10-15 to perceive those hints, before being able to deduce them via Investigation.
• Fiery Trap: The Fiery trap's description speaks of "faint ash marks". Faint means "not obvious". So again, the outcome to spot is uncertain. And that means, it should require a Perception check at first, followed by an Investigation check to deduce those facts to realize, it's a trap.

AGAIN: I am not arguing the definition of those skills. I am arguing the point that any trap and any detail which is uncertain to perceive normally requires a Perception check. But these rules handle traps that require deduction (via Investigation) as if any of those details would automatically been perceived. And that is not consistent.



In my view, ANY trap should require:

• a Perception check ranging from DC 1 to 30, depend of the level of concealment of trap details. These details are perceived via hearing, spotting, etc. This check reveals details, but doesn't tell the character it's a trap.
• In addition, there is a need of an Investigation check ranging from DC 1 to 30, depend of the level of deduction needed to interpret those details, hints, evidences as being a trap.

This also makes it possible to take circumstances into account that make perceiving more difficult. Because even a low DC can be hard to succeed, if the characters are distracted or exhausted, any trap should require a Perception check at first.



Player knowledge vs. character knowledge

It's only a guess, but maybe the real problem is a different: It seems like WotC wants to avoid that details perceived by Perception are automatically interpret by the Players. E.g. a character succeeds on a perception check and the DM tells the player: "Your character spots faint burn marks". I guess, most of the Players would realize, it's a trap and continue acting in great care. So they make the Investigation check for its Character obsolet by deducing informations as a Player. Maybe this is the real reason, why WotC doesn't ask for both checks. But that's not satisfying though.

Regards.

 

[Horwath]

I've made a simple solution.

Delete Investigation skill.

Perception is for noticing things and gathering clues.

Then it's up to the players thinking from those clues to come with solution not from "d20".

If they can't figure the trap out from clues then there is use for those few goblin corpses that someone is always carrying in bag of holding.