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Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question
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<blockquote data-quote="Greenfield" data-source="post: 7179204" data-attributes="member: 6669384"><p>I think I'll dissect this one piece by piece.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A point you left off: Can you suddenly become a boyer (bow maker) or blacksmith, even if you've never even fired a bow nor taken time at a forge? (Trust me, there's a lot more to making a bow than just carving up a likely looking piece of wood.)</p><p></p><p>And, of course, my question was, how do you handle INT losses? Which skills do you retroactively lose? You've yet to answer that one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The bonuses from Wis and Cha are no more immediate than the ones from Int. All stats affect Skill modifiers right away. STR affects combat melee attack and damage rolls, Dex affects Init, Reflex Saves, ranged attacks and AC right away. Con affects HP and Fort saves right away. Wis affects skill checks and Will Saves right away. Int and Cha affect skill bonuses and Spell DCs right away. CHA affects a cleric's dealing with Undead.</p><p></p><p>Those last two seem to get the short end of the stick because neither one has a Save attached, and none of the mental stats affect physical performance (i.e. they aren't really applicable in combat), but there's no black hole around INT (nor CHA for that matter) that says it's somehow excluded. You keep calling it an exception, but it isn't.</p><p></p><p>Str affects lift and carry, as well as melee attacks and damage. But unless you happen to be in the middle of a fight at the moment the stat increases, you have to wait for the right situation for it to come into play. Future, not past.</p><p></p><p>Int, and all other stat changes, affect future events only. Charisma helps deal with people, and undead, but you can't take advantage until the situation arises. Future, not past.</p><p></p><p>Same for Wisdom, Dex and Charisma. CON is the funny one, in that it can be read as if it applied to the past. It doesn't though, not really. It just lets you make the most of what you already have.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I understand what you're saying. What I understand though is that you want this one stat to have an exception rule applied, a "black hole" that makes it different from every other stat. You want changes today to change what happened yesterday. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you think that temporary buffs, like Bull's strength or Cat's Grace (with durations in minutes) should take a few hours or days to come into play? Sorry, I didn't intend to mock you, but your suggestion is, at the least, cringe-worthy.</p><p></p><p>I know you weren't actually making that suggestion, but then neither did I. I just observed that the specific effect you're asking about applies when you gain a level. It affects future events, not past ones. Just like every other stat-change in the game. And the sad thing is of course, you have to wait for the future to happen. It isn't instant.</p><p></p><p>(Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening all at once. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> )</p><p></p><p></p><p>As noted earlier: Only a Wish or Miracle (I think) can change the past, and even they can only roll back time by six seconds. Why you would grant such a scope to the natural progression of earned and learned abilities isn't a question of "realism v magic". It's more of a "WTF???"</p><p></p><p>The answer of "Hey, it's magic" is an easy one to fall back on, but it's usually used by people who can't or won't try to understand the rules, and/or don't care about consistency. </p><p></p><p>Yes, there's magic in the game world, and yes it defies our normal sense of physics and "what's possible". "It just happened" though is a lousy excuse for anything in a Role Playing game, magical or otherwise.</p><p></p><p>As far as your idea is concerned: The rules say no. Rules consistency says no. Game balance says no. The inability to handle the contra-case (stat loss) says no. "Realism", for what it's worth, says no.</p><p></p><p>If you're the DM and it's your table, you're free to say yes. Your table, your rules and all that.</p><p></p><p>If you're trying to convince me though, well, the answer is no.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greenfield, post: 7179204, member: 6669384"] I think I'll dissect this one piece by piece. A point you left off: Can you suddenly become a boyer (bow maker) or blacksmith, even if you've never even fired a bow nor taken time at a forge? (Trust me, there's a lot more to making a bow than just carving up a likely looking piece of wood.) And, of course, my question was, how do you handle INT losses? Which skills do you retroactively lose? You've yet to answer that one. The bonuses from Wis and Cha are no more immediate than the ones from Int. All stats affect Skill modifiers right away. STR affects combat melee attack and damage rolls, Dex affects Init, Reflex Saves, ranged attacks and AC right away. Con affects HP and Fort saves right away. Wis affects skill checks and Will Saves right away. Int and Cha affect skill bonuses and Spell DCs right away. CHA affects a cleric's dealing with Undead. Those last two seem to get the short end of the stick because neither one has a Save attached, and none of the mental stats affect physical performance (i.e. they aren't really applicable in combat), but there's no black hole around INT (nor CHA for that matter) that says it's somehow excluded. You keep calling it an exception, but it isn't. Str affects lift and carry, as well as melee attacks and damage. But unless you happen to be in the middle of a fight at the moment the stat increases, you have to wait for the right situation for it to come into play. Future, not past. Int, and all other stat changes, affect future events only. Charisma helps deal with people, and undead, but you can't take advantage until the situation arises. Future, not past. Same for Wisdom, Dex and Charisma. CON is the funny one, in that it can be read as if it applied to the past. It doesn't though, not really. It just lets you make the most of what you already have. I understand what you're saying. What I understand though is that you want this one stat to have an exception rule applied, a "black hole" that makes it different from every other stat. You want changes today to change what happened yesterday. So you think that temporary buffs, like Bull's strength or Cat's Grace (with durations in minutes) should take a few hours or days to come into play? Sorry, I didn't intend to mock you, but your suggestion is, at the least, cringe-worthy. I know you weren't actually making that suggestion, but then neither did I. I just observed that the specific effect you're asking about applies when you gain a level. It affects future events, not past ones. Just like every other stat-change in the game. And the sad thing is of course, you have to wait for the future to happen. It isn't instant. (Time is nature's way of keeping everything from happening all at once. :) ) As noted earlier: Only a Wish or Miracle (I think) can change the past, and even they can only roll back time by six seconds. Why you would grant such a scope to the natural progression of earned and learned abilities isn't a question of "realism v magic". It's more of a "WTF???" The answer of "Hey, it's magic" is an easy one to fall back on, but it's usually used by people who can't or won't try to understand the rules, and/or don't care about consistency. Yes, there's magic in the game world, and yes it defies our normal sense of physics and "what's possible". "It just happened" though is a lousy excuse for anything in a Role Playing game, magical or otherwise. As far as your idea is concerned: The rules say no. Rules consistency says no. Game balance says no. The inability to handle the contra-case (stat loss) says no. "Realism", for what it's worth, says no. If you're the DM and it's your table, you're free to say yes. Your table, your rules and all that. If you're trying to convince me though, well, the answer is no. [/QUOTE]
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