Permanent Increases in Intelligence Question

[ElectricDragon]

Permanent increases in Constitution are retroactive, yet supposedly, permanent increases in Intelligence are not. I think that Intelligence increases (whether by level, wish, or god granted) should also be retroactive. Yes, I know this is the rules forum, please bear with me.

When you, as DM make up a dragon, say for instance, a green dragon; do you, as DM figure up its skill points per HD as it gained in Intelligence growing up? Or do you, as DM say "Its HD are (38 for a green great wyrm plus 3) times (6 plus Intelligence modifier of +6) for a total of 492 skill points?

The difference is great. Up until it gained 11 HD, a green dragon only got 6+0 points per HD. Yet to make things go faster, most DM's give the dragon retroactive Intelligence points.

Why should a dragon, one of the most powerful creatures in the game get an ability that is denied to player characters just because it is easier to do it that way? Why not also give this ability to player characters and reduce paperwork and record-keeping. Not all characters would benefit from this ruling, a 20th level sorcerer made up for a one-shot who placed all his ability increases in Charisma, or a Fighter who placed all his in Strength, would not notice the ruling either way. But a wizard or psion that placed all their ability point increases in Intelligence, or anyone that used a Tome of Clear Thought would highly benefit from this lessening of record-keeping.
It would change this:
"Let's see, your wizard had an Intelligence of 15 at first level and so his skill points until 4th level would be 24, then you would get another 40 points until 12th level and then another 48 points to get you to 19th level and then 7 more points for 20th level. Oh wait, you're a human too so add another 23 points. That's, umm, 142."

To this:
"20th level human wizard with 20 Int=(6+2)*(20+3)=184."

I mean, we, as DMs, do it for dragons all the time, because it would make dragon-making a more difficult process than it already is, why not loosen the strings and let it work that way for players, too.

Sorry, rant over.

Ciao,
Dave

 

[Herzog]

consider this:

if int increases are retroactive just like con increases are, than so should int decreases be retroactive just like con decreases are.


loosing Con bonusses is one of the major hassles a player has to deal with.
don't spread this bookkeeping nightmare to int!

 

[Runestar]

Permanent increases in Constitution are retroactive, yet supposedly, permanent increases in Intelligence are not.

It is not that straightforward.

Your con-bonus to hp can afford to be retroactive as it is fairly intuitive to calculate (con mod*HD). So anytime your con changes (lv-up, con-boosting effects like rage, con-damage from poison etc), the player in question can still quickly determine how it impacts his character's hp.

So if my 5th lv barb rages, I know that he gets +10hp without batting an eyelid.

Conversely, changes to int would be much more troublesome.

The difference is great. Up until it gained 11 HD, a green dragon only got 6+0 points per HD. Yet to make things go faster, most DM's give the dragon retroactive Intelligence points.

There is actually an excerpt somewhere (in savage species or draconomicon) stating that the int boost for dragons is considered retroactive.

As for human wizards, I am divided as well. It would be a hassle for a player who has been playing that wizard from 1st lv to 20th lv to recalculate extra skill points, though I admit it would be extremely convenient for a DM creating a high-lv npc or a player statting up a high lv PC for a 1-shot.

But for npcs, it is less of an issue when you realize that a wizard only needs to max out concentration and spellcraft. The rest are irrelevant in combat anyways.

 

[Voadam]

consider this:

if int increases are retroactive just like con increases are, than so should int decreases be retroactive just like con decreases are.


loosing Con bonusses is one of the major hassles a player has to deal with.
don't spread this bookkeeping nightmare to int!

When do you permanently lose int? I know there are some oddball monsters with int drain (I think some ravenloft vampire strains) but it is a very rare thing as far as I am aware.

Skill points are only affected when an int change is permanent such as by levelling or using a tome of clear thought, not by things like fox's cunning or headbands of intellect.

 

[frankthedm]

Why should a dragon, one of the most powerful creatures in the game get an ability that is denied to player characters just because it is easier to do it that way? Why not also give this ability to player characters and reduce paperwork and record-keeping. Not all characters would benefit from this ruling, a 20th level sorcerer made up for a one-shot who placed all his ability increases in Charisma, or a Fighter who placed all his in Strength, would not notice the ruling either way. But a wizard or psion that placed all their ability point increases in Intelligence, or anyone that used a Tome of Clear Thought would highly benefit from this lessening of record-keeping.

Its not a lessening of record keeping. You level up, & place your skill points. Those skill points not assigned are lost.

Allowing Int increases to retroactively effect skill points is what would increase record keeping. Especially for multiclass characters who will have to track skill points for levels when they has smaller skill options. A character definitely should not be able to "float" skill points by increasing Int AFTER gaining access to a new skill set from a new class or PRC.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Skill points are only affected when an int change is permanent such as by levelling or using a tome of clear thought,

...or aging.

I just let permanent int changes (i.e. tomes but not headbands) give permanent retroactive skill points changes. Problem solved.

 

[rgard]

I mean, we, as DMs, do it for dragons all the time, because it would make dragon-making a more difficult process than it already is, why not loosen the strings and let it work that way for players, too.

As a DM I make the int changes retroactively impact skill points. The players use spreadsheets that handle the record keeping changes easy enough.

Same rule applies for the NPCs.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Corsair]

The problem is the misuse of the word "retroactive" in reference to Constitution. Constitution is in no way "retroactive."

Constitution affects your current total HP and your current max HP.

Lets say you have bob the human fighter. He has 12 con, he is level 1. He had 1 HD which grants him 10 HP, for a total of 11 HP.

Bob hits level 2. Yay! He rolls his d10 HD and gets a 7. Note that he doesn't gain 8 HP this level! He gains 7! However his Constitution is giving him now 2 HP, +1 per HD.

The flaw is in the reasoning of most players in that they include their constitution bonus to the amount gained at leveling up. This isn't technically correct. The HP gained at leveling are only those from the HD. Once they have a new, higher HD total, the amount of HP granted by the Constitution bonus is higher.

If the constitution changes, then the bonus changes. However that 10 from Bob's first HD and the 7 from his second don't change.

There is nothing happening "retroactively."

 

[irdeggman]

The problem is the misuse of the word "retroactive" in reference to Constitution. Constitution is in no way "retroactive."

Constitution affects your current total HP and your current max HP.

Lets say you have bob the human fighter. He has 12 con, he is level 1. He had 1 HD which grants him 10 HP, for a total of 11 HP.

Bob hits level 2. Yay! He rolls his d10 HD and gets a 7. Note that he doesn't gain 8 HP this level! He gains 7! However his Constitution is giving him now 2 HP, +1 per HD.

The flaw is in the reasoning of most players in that they include their constitution bonus to the amount gained at leveling up. This isn't technically correct. The HP gained at leveling are only those from the HD. Once they have a new, higher HD total, the amount of HP granted by the Constitution bonus is higher.

If the constitution changes, then the bonus changes. However that 10 from Bob's first HD and the 7 from his second don't change.

There is nothing happening "retroactively."

Good point and great way of laying out how it it supposed to work.

 

[irdeggman]

When you, as DM make up a dragon, say for instance, a green dragon; do you, as DM figure up its skill points per HD as it gained in Intelligence growing up? Or do you, as DM say "Its HD are (38 for a green great wyrm plus 3) times (6 plus Intelligence modifier of +6) for a total of 492 skill points?

The difference is great. Up until it gained 11 HD, a green dragon only got 6+0 points per HD. Yet to make things go faster, most DM's give the dragon retroactive Intelligence points.

Why should a dragon, one of the most powerful creatures in the game get an ability that is denied to player characters just because it is easier to do it that way? Why not also give this ability to player characters and reduce paperwork and record-keeping. Not all characters would benefit from this ruling, a 20th level sorcerer made up for a one-shot who placed all his ability increases in Charisma, or a Fighter who placed all his in Strength, would not notice the ruling either way. But a wizard or psion that placed all their ability point increases in Intelligence, or anyone that used a Tome of Clear Thought would highly benefit from this lessening of record-keeping.
It would change this:
"Let's see, your wizard had an Intelligence of 15 at first level and so his skill points until 4th level would be 24, then you would get another 40 points until 12th level and then another 48 points to get you to 19th level and then 7 more points for 20th level. Oh wait, you're a human too so add another 23 points. That's, umm, 142."

To this:
"20th level human wizard with 20 Int=(6+2)*(20+3)=184."

I mean, we, as DMs, do it for dragons all the time, because it would make dragon-making a more difficult process than it already is, why not loosen the strings and let it work that way for players, too.

Sorry, rant over.

Ciao,
Dave

Because DMs (we) "cheat".

Actually you are supposed to advance everything that is not straight out of the book at a per level rate.

Look at it this way - you are creating a 15th level character, 5 level wizard, 5 level rogue, 5 level fighter.

How do you "build" this PC?

Do you dump all of the skill points, and feats into a pot and just say I have this many to use?

If so then you will inevetiably violate the rules due to max ranks at some point or prerequisites for feats that aren't met when they are "used".