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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 727778" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>Glad you cleared that up. Whew!Amazingly, i dont think i have met most people, much less gamed with them, So i will have to just take your word for it.Ahh... even more we dont just understand it-ism.Hmmm... might i postulate a different theory? The tactical maneuverings of mages and wizards are more obvious and thus more observable and noticeable from a glance to a cursory observer, even one as gifted as yourself?For example, when a player moves his fighter figure up and takes a swing at the left orc in a pair, is it obvious that he moved so that he was set up for a cleave if his strike felled the orc? The cleave may or may not occur but without proper placement AHEAD OF TIME it will not occur much at all. Another example is the cleric who move up right behind the front line so that he can cast spells at the enemy, cure the front line fighter or step in for melee all at the drop of a hat because he has positioned himself well. heck, he can even cast a cure and step 5' and ready a weapon to take his melee spot because of his positional choice.of course this isn't as dramatic or as visible as "i get +5d6 more damage" but its still tactics.Cool... i am over 40 and i have been playing for over 20 years... all adult. My fellow player bob is eyeing retirement and makes me look like a young-un.In my experience, to a large extent the degree of tactical application by the players is directly linked to the degree to which the system makes these things relevent. They play tactics much more when tactics actually matter.As a result, DND3e, which is only a few years old, tends to ffoster more tactical play. Its also my experience that tactical applications work fairly well regardless of specific types and nuances. Archers are not more susceptable to "tactical counters" than melee fighter are, just subject to DIFFERENT ones.How much longer is a "very extremely" long time than just a very long time or an extremely long time?IMX... the degree to which tactical play is used depends very much on the degree to which it is emphasised in the rules and the game. Players tend to do what they see working that is within character scope.The catch is, tactical savvy works for and against all character types. The same tactical principles are just as applicable to any "class" or type of fire.Example: Use cover to prevent archer shots... thats not a tactical principle, thats an execution of a tactical principle.The principle is "deny the enemy shots while getting them yourself" and its specific application for MELEER vs ARCHER is to take cover and fight from behind cover. The same principle employed against a MELEE type would involve executions such as firing from range while they close, firing from range from a position they cannot get to, attacking with reach weapons... and so on.In both cases the idea is to use some feature, whether native to the environment or created by you, to interfere with the enemy's ability to hit you. This can be done easily to either melee guy or archer guy EXCEPT that the archer guy does not need to be close to you. The melee guy does and as such you have more to play with to frustrate him.Sundering and disarming can be done against fighters with melee weapons though not necessarily as well as they can against archers... ONCE YOU GET TO THE ARCHER... but its harder to get to the archer and if you are moving to get to the archer you have fewer chances than if you are engaging the meleer.EXAMPLE: After closing 30' (getting past whatever obstacles there are) to the archer you get ONE sunder attampt.EXAMPLE: While meleeing a dwarven fighter you can simply choose to take your three attacks, one by one, as sunder attempts. One the first one he gets his AoO but then, barring feats, your remaining two are just fine. Three attempts is a very decent chance to nail the WOODEN hafted axe.I can go on but it boils down to this simple summary... everyone is vulnerable to some good tactics and in certain circumstance can be negated. IMX neither archers or axe wielding barbarians or rogues or mages is any more or less subject to this rule.[/QUOTE]

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