Pathfinder 2E PF2 Peeves

[evilbob]

Couple peeves:

- Volley. Shooting some ranged weapons gets harder when the target is closer. That's... not how it works. If they needed a way to balance long bows vs. short, maybe make them harder to draw.

- Some feats probably shouldn't be feats - they should just be things that happen in the game. Connections is an example. So after 12 levels of delving dungeons, you suddenly have all these friends at court? Or worse, after spending 12 levels helping all the nobles in town, no one will talk to you without a class feature?

- I really don't understand shield block. (See my other post.)

- You get a jillion feats which is cool for specializing the crap out of your character, but because they're so plentiful, they also... suck. They just feel really, really small. You get so many things to choose each level that none of them feel significant - with the one exception that a few feats level up later when you your skills get better, so at least those eventually get good. It's nice that there are no more "dead" levels for any class, though.

- By contrast, every 5th level you get FOUR ability boosts? Wow. That blows pretty much every other upgrade away - by a mile. I wonder what the idea was for that? Why not get one boost every level but the 5th one and spread it out more? (It's not like you aren't going to be erasing all your numbers constantly every level anyway, since there's a single bonus that is added to everything that changes every level.)

- The proficiency bonus to skills mean that being trained vs. untrained vs. master - all that doesn't really matter much at higher levels because you're just talking about what is basically a +/-2, which you might get as a circumstance bonus from something else anyway. Training levels matter more to feats and feat-access... but that just means rogues are going to have a really hard time leveling (due to having so many choices) and barbarians aren't, since there aren't many non-skill feats.

 

[Gladius Legis]

- The Paladin is hands down the worst version of the class ever. And that's saying something considering how awful the D&D 3.5 and 4e Paladins were. It's like those two Paladins had a baby, passed down their worst traits and even missed a chromosome or two along the way. And not only is it the worst Paladin ever, it's the worst CLASS ever in the D&D/Pathfinder lineage.

- The general immobility of the combat. Much prefer 5e's ability to perform actions in the middle of movement.

 

[Zardnaar]

That doesn't solve the siloing problem, because it's not future proof. It only solves the page space issue, which is the lesser problem.

5E kind f does this as well though although its often you can do something similar in a different way. Paladins do not get TWF or archery styles IIRC. PF has not built any class features into the lcass though seems like its almost build your own class from a predetermined list in effect.

 

[evilbob]

- The Paladin is hands down the worst version of the class ever.

I'm interested in hearing why you think this. (I have no opinion and neither agree nor disagree.)

One thing I realized is that "shield block" AND "retributive strike" are reactions, of which you get 1/turn. That means you either use your class feature, or a shield, but not both. And you can only use a shield 1/turn, although the benefits (DR instead of AR) seem greater. So shields are really a trap for paladins and fighters (since they start with AoO).

The fighter is a far superior martial character, and the paladin seems to suffer a bit from their access to less focused things like better mounts/light healing. And it would take 2 general feats (one that's completely wasted) to "dip" into fighter in any real way. Then again, paladins tend to be able to specialize very well against a known, specific foe type. If your entire campaign were about slaying undead, for example, and you knew that by level 2, you would probably do at least as well as a more generalist fighter.

 

[Gladius Legis]

I'm interested in hearing why you think this. (I have no opinion and neither agree nor disagree.)

- Weakest rendition of Lay on Hands since AD&D.
- Hinging so many class feats and the automatic class features you get at higher levels entirely on Retributive Strike steers the Paladin completely into reactive and passive gameplay.
- Divine Grace requiring a reaction for its save bonus. Eww.
- The Paladin's Holy Smite class feature not coming until Lv. 9, and only then being based entirely off Retributive Strike.
- Retributive Strike sucks at even its intended purpose as a defender power. Has no range.
- Litany powers all suck.
- Righteous Ally options are all either underwhelming (Blade), situational (Steed) or just plain garbage (Shield).
- The 20th level class feats are TERRIBLE. Fighters get permanent quickness, spellcasters get 10th-level spells, Paladins get ... keen on their weapon? What a joke.
- The one feat that looks as if it's meant to be the analog to the PF1 Smite, Blade of Justice, (a) requires a specific Righteous Ally pick, and (b) is EXTREMELY weak.

That's just some of the problems. The PF2 Paladin is so awful it makes the 5e Ranger look like a masterpiece of class design by comparison.

 

[evilbob]

Sorry I finished my edit after your response. Those seem like legit complaints. My first thought about paladins was that shields were a trap, and they should use reach weapons. Stacking so many things into their 1 reaction per turn does limit their options each turn. It also means smart enemies can avoid / juke their reaction to put them at a disadvantage.

With Lay on Hands, you can heighten it to make it 3d4+CHA, which seems like the intention for general use - but it's useless at high levels, since usage and strength are bounded by CHA instead of level, which seems like a mistake for such a big class feature. Seems like paladins either needed more martial capability or more spellpower to round them out, but they ended with too little of both (as opposed to before, when they had too much of both).

 

[Arakasius]

Lay on Hands auto heightens, so the healing is quite high at high levels. It is slightly better than 1e with the feat, especially since it gives you an AC bonus.

I do agree they’re a bit overloaded on the AOO front (having easy access to 3 but having to balance it with no ways to get reflexes) I agree the 20 buff is a bit lackluster, but since you’re limited in how many enchants you can out on a weapon it is a tangible DPS bonus no one else has. It doesn’t really feel unique as a capstone which is more my problem with it, not that it is mechanically bad. I’ll have to see on litanies if my paladin chose them.

I do agree they’re very much all in on Retributive Strike, and if that doesn’t play well it’s not going to work. If it does play well I think Holy Smite is quite solid because persistent damage in 2e is brutal. But it’s all tied in on actually being able to play the defender playstyle. My groups paladin will be taking the AOO fighter feat so he will have both. I’m curious which will come up more often.

 

[Kaodi]

Shield Champion seems like it could be funny paired with Indestructible Shield. Then it would be truly indestructible - able to come back even from being Disintegrated or Annihilated.

 

[Satyrn]

One thing I realized is that "shield block" AND "retributive strike" are reactions, of which you get 1/turn. That means you either use your class feature, or a shield, but not both. And you can only use a shield 1/turn, although the benefits (DR instead of AR) seem greater. So shields are really a trap for paladins and fighters (since they start with AoO).

Although it kinda goes against Starfox's request in the OP, I do want to point out something because it might help you be more okay shields a little more (and I'm not sure if you noticed this in the jumble of rules): even if the character doesn't use his reaction with the shield, he's still getting the shield's AC bonus on every attack.

Shield block winds up being an additional perk.

 

[houser2112]

It's nice that there are no more "dead" levels for any class, though.

There are plenty of dead levels if you leave out all the things that ALL classes get at the same time, like ability boosts and ancestry, skill, and general feats.

5E kind f does this as well though although its often you can do something similar in a different way. Paladins do not get TWF or archery styles IIRC. PF has not built any class features into the lcass though seems like its almost build your own class from a predetermined list in effect.

PF2 is a step backwards in character customization, that's for sure. It's like they don't care what 3.x fans think, which is a curious stance for them to take.