Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[FrozenNorth]

I was part of @Retreater ’s group, and I just thought that I would give my two copper.

PF2 has a lot of fiddly subsystems that are designed to bite hard if you don’t care about them.*

Don’t care about the exploration subsystem? Your rogue is denied sneak attack of each first round of combat.
Don’t care about the treasure subsystem? Waiting an extra level or two until a striking rune drops hits your martial’s effectiveness hard.
Don’t care about the char gen minigame? What is the life expectancy of a low-level 12 Dex wizard against a +1 enemy?
Don’t care about sneak mini-game? Tough to avoid if enemies ambush or use invisibilty.
Don’t care (or have trouble) managing the Hero Point mini-game)? The team is that much more fragile.
Don’t care for the healing mini-game? Sorry, you are out of luck!
Item-crafting/fixing mini-game? This one you can avoid…unless you are a sword and board fighter.

So, you either force yourself to interact with a mini-game you don’t particularly enjoy (unless everyone BOTH agrees to ignore it and AND groks the system enough to compensate for its absence) or you just suffer the effects of ignoring it.

*Caveat: I’m aware that the GMG contains variants to some of these systems. Some of those variants mean more work for the GM and eschewing tools available online. Also, it requires the group both agreeing on a diagnosis and implementing the change. Finally, if you have torn out all of the subsystems and replaced them with variants, at what point aren’t you just better changing to a different game altogether?

 

[kenada]

Finally, if you have torn out all of the subsystems and replaced them with variants, at what point aren’t you just better changing to a different game altogether?

There’s usually some bit people still like, or they have an emotional attachment to the game. I’m reminded of some fabulously splendid discussions I’ve had with 5e’ers who seemed offended that I didn’t want to homebrew it into whatever.

 

[FrozenNorth]

There’s usually some bit people still like, or they have an emotional attachment to the game. I’m reminded of some fabulously splendid discussions I’ve had with 5e’ers who seemed offended that I didn’t want to homebrew it into whatever.

True, but I would imagine that sort of attachment is more likely to form when someone has used a system for a long time, rather than with a relatively new system.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I was part of @Retreater ’s group, and I just thought that I would give my two copper.

PF2 has a lot of fiddly subsystems that are designed to bite hard if you don’t care about them.*

Don’t care about the exploration subsystem? Your rogue is denied sneak attack of each first round of combat.

Tumble Through.

Don’t care about the treasure subsystem? Waiting an extra level or two until a striking rune drops hits your martial’s effectiveness hard.
Don’t care about the char gen minigame? What is the life expectancy of a low-level 12 Dex wizard against a +1 enemy?

In my observation, depends what he does with the bonuses instead.

Don’t care about sneak mini-game? Tough to avoid if enemies ambush or use invisibilty.

Well, yes, if you don't use the system for stealth, stealth isn't going to work.

Don’t care (or have trouble) managing the Hero Point mini-game)? The team is that much more fragile.

Minigame? The Hero Point system is a minigame to you?

Don’t care for the healing mini-game? Sorry, you are out of luck!

Is there some incarnation of D&D that not engaging with the healing methodologies goes well?

 

[Thomas Shey]

There’s usually some bit people still like, or they have an emotional attachment to the game. I’m reminded of some fabulously splendid discussions I’ve had with 5e’ers who seemed offended that I didn’t want to homebrew it into whatever.

Yup. Happens with a lot of games.

Much as I kind of blinked at FrozenNorth above, he's right about that, though; if you don't really like the majority of elements of a game's structure, trying to hammer it into what you do like is kind of an idiot's game.

 

[Retreater]

Tumble Through.

That can work sometimes to get into position, but it's far from a sure thing. If you don't have Acrobatics absolutely maxxed out, you won't have a chance of getting through Reflex DCs. (And even if you do max it out, it's unlikely to work.) In this case it's usually a better idea just to walk around your opponents to get into flanking position - because almost no one has AoOs anymore.

Well, yes, if you don't use the system for stealth, stealth isn't going to work.

It's a pretty vital component of a game to not use, but they have something like 5 conditions to describe different types of hiding. It could easily be a binary thing: Do they know you're there or not? Instead you have concealed, hidden, invisible, undetected, unnoticed. Don't you think that could've been simplified a little?

Minigame? The Hero Point system is a minigame to you?

As @FrozenNorth 's GM, I had to keep a notebook to remind me to give a Hero Point every hour, and to mark down who gets one to spread them out over the sessions. And do you spend it on a re-roll, keep it to auto-stabilize? It's certainly an optional rule that isn't really optional, unless you want a TPK.

 

[CapnZapp]

I was part of @Retreater ’s group, and I just thought that I would give my two copper.

PF2 has a lot of fiddly subsystems that are designed to bite hard if you don’t care about them.*

Don’t care about the exploration subsystem? Your rogue is denied sneak attack of each first round of combat.
Don’t care about the treasure subsystem? Waiting an extra level or two until a striking rune drops hits your martial’s effectiveness hard.
Don’t care about the char gen minigame? What is the life expectancy of a low-level 12 Dex wizard against a +1 enemy?
Don’t care about sneak mini-game? Tough to avoid if enemies ambush or use invisibilty.
Don’t care (or have trouble) managing the Hero Point mini-game)? The team is that much more fragile.
Don’t care for the healing mini-game? Sorry, you are out of luck!
Item-crafting/fixing mini-game? This one you can avoid…unless you are a sword and board fighter.

So, you either force yourself to interact with a mini-game you don’t particularly enjoy (unless everyone BOTH agrees to ignore it and AND groks the system enough to compensate for its absence) or you just suffer the effects of ignoring it.

*Caveat: I’m aware that the GMG contains variants to some of these systems. Some of those variants mean more work for the GM and eschewing tools available online. Also, it requires the group both agreeing on a diagnosis and implementing the change. Finally, if you have torn out all of the subsystems and replaced them with variants, at what point aren’t you just better changing to a different game altogether?

Very good points.

People saying "but there are solutions to this" all miss "why does it have to be a problem in the first place"

Like I said, the game just is super inflexible and focused, and getting tossed crumbs in the form of "optional variants" does not change this.

 

[CapnZapp]

Here's one attempt to boil down the problem with PF2:

They assume people need balance so badly they will put up with a shipload of restrictive detailed nonsense.

The game is written from the perspective of "if even one thing ends up slightly better than projected everything's a failure"

So, any time you veer off the game's expected play style, you end up with a ship load of cruft but not the balance it was so painfully designed to uphold.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That can work sometimes to get into position, but it's far from a sure thing. If you don't have Acrobatics absolutely maxxed out, you won't have a chance of getting through Reflex DCs. (And even if you do max it out, it's unlikely to work.) In this case it's usually a better idea just to walk around your opponents to get into flanking position - because almost no one has AoOs anymore.

I don't know what her particular rank is at, but I watch my wife's rogue do that multiple times a fight literally every game. So your characterization of that is clearly incorrect and/or based on some set of assumptions not self-evident.

(And no, she doesn't have hot dice; if anything she runs to the contrary).

It's a pretty vital component of a game to not use, but they have something like 5 conditions to describe different types of hiding. It could easily be a binary thing: Do they know you're there or not? Instead you have concealed, hidden, invisible, undetected, unnoticed. Don't you think that could've been simplified a little?

Could have? Absolutely. Should have? Not necessarily (and I don't think invisible is a condition in and of itself).

As @FrozenNorth 's GM, I had to keep a notebook to remind me to give a Hero Point every hour, and to mark down who gets one to spread them out over the sessions. And do you spend it on a re-roll, keep it to auto-stabilize? It's certainly an optional rule that isn't really optional, unless you want a TPK.

Our GM's just given us three up front at the start of a session normally, and I don't recall anything particularly untoward happening. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone need to use one to auto-stabilize.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Very good points.

People saying "but there are solutions to this" all miss "why does it have to be a problem in the first place"

Or, in some of our cases, don't consider it a problem. Having actual systems to deal with regularly done tasks is not a flaw from where I sit.