Pathfinder 2E PF2: Second Attempt Post Mortem

[Retreater]

The Paizo sub-forums for the APs are a wealth of info and advice on running them. At least during the PF1 era, the forums over at Paizo seemed to be on life support now (everybody on reddit, discord, etc..?). Anyways, I always made sure to frequent them while running an AP to get ideas to incorporate into my campaign and to look out for any potential pitfalls in the material. Its a time consuming task to make an AP sing, but its labor of love for me. I can see it being a chore for others.

Yeah, there's certainly not a lot going on over there discussing Abomination Vaults. There was some initial hype, but then it dropped off pretty quickly.
There's certainly nothing like what we see for WotC Mega-Adventures. There are multiple YouTube channels that pick apart each chapter, DMs Guild content to expand every one of the storylines, bloggers who give all kinds of advice, etc.
PF2 has this assumption that a GM obviously already understands everything. There's really nothing out there to help run the game, and Paizo is focused on just making it more complex. The YouTubers I have watched are basically reactionary trying to defend the design of PF2.
Aside from Paizo itself, there's a desert of content for PF2 (not just 3PP, actual discussion of the system and its products).

 

[payn]

Yeah, there's certainly not a lot going on over there discussing Abomination Vaults. There was some initial hype, but then it dropped off pretty quickly.
There's certainly nothing like what we see for WotC Mega-Adventures. There are multiple YouTube channels that pick apart each chapter, DMs Guild content to expand every one of the storylines, bloggers who give all kinds of advice, etc.
PF2 has this assumption that a GM obviously already understands everything. There's really nothing out there to help run the game, and Paizo is focused on just making it more complex. The YouTubers I have watched are basically reactionary trying to defend the design of PF2.
Aside from Paizo itself, there's a desert of content for PF2 (not just 3PP, actual discussion of the system and its products).

Thats really too bad. In the PF1 era there was so much community action going on. I'm guessing it's moved onto discord, but god what a waste land you have to wade thru to find anything useful.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I suspect at least these days that discussion of AP flares when they first drop and then trails off. As I've noted, from a GM point of view I find almost all adventures for any game too rigid for my tastes, so my ability to assess them is crippled by the fact that I'm fundamentally not their market.

 

[Doctor Futurity]

Does anyone run Pathfinder 2E creating their own content aside from me? I find the modules for pF (both 1E and 2E) to generally be tedious affairs. As an example to the OP, if I'm going to sink a few hours into designing NPCs and maps for a VTT, I would rather do my own stuff than tediously translate someone else's work. That said....I am very low impact in VTT, and make sure my players know I have no interest in competing with the GMs who are good at finding time and skill to make elaborate maps with lighting effects; I run it like a narrative story, just like I do at the tabletop, and keep the maps to a necessary minimum.

Anyway....I've been running PF2E using my own homebrew scenarios and campaign since it came out and quite enjoy it, though I feel its tight focus on balance as well as the eternal "trap" of burning too many actions to get a third attack that will almost certainly sink you with a fumble is a problem in the design. I actually went back to D&D 3.5 for one of my campaigns to contrast it, and find myself enjoying the old Big Dog original more simply because it feels a little more gonzo and liberating than what PF1E and 2E offer. That said....I also still continue to enjoy D&D 5E a lot, and also prefer how skills are handled in 5E (and 3.5) over PF2E.....so I can't say I am exactly providing a ringing endorsement for PF2E at this point, either.

 

[Retreater]

Does anyone run Pathfinder 2E creating their own content aside from me?

I never got to that level of familiarity, sadly. Had my AP campaigns worked, I'd have liked to convert a big adventure I wrote for OSR for potential publication in PF2 (since I did some design in 3.5/PF1). But I figured if I couldn't even run a straightforward AP in a satisfactory way, I had no business designing my own adventures.
All the effort I put into the VTT design was to help my table management during play. I didn't want to be looking up monster stats during combat, repeating unique monster attack effects every time a player had to make a save, etc. For me it was important, though not for every GM.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I haven't actually run the game, but if I did I wouldn't be using published content for the most part.

And honestly, there's no need even if you want to use maps and tokens to go nuts with a VTT; I just find something close enough or put something together from tiles and move on.

(I sometimes get a bit more OCD about token images than needed, but that's a personal flaw rather than a necessity).

(I can't follow you in any appreciation of 3e era D&D these days; I remember how my campaign of that played out too well to do so. And there's not much good to say about 5e from where I sit other than the fact its well distributed. But then, arguably, I'm still not that much of a D20 person.).

 

[Grendel_Khan]

@Retreater I know I'm breaking one of the implicit rules of forum posts by responding without really adding anything, but this post-mortem is really useful and wonderfully presented.

 

[kenada]

Does anyone run Pathfinder 2E creating their own content aside from me?

I ran a sandbox hexcrawl for about a year before (eventually) shifting-to/rebooting-in Worlds Without Number. I never thought there was anything about Pathfinder 2e that was particularly problematic. My burnout was due more to realizing I was just tired of certain features of “modern” D&Ds and wanting to run something more OSR-adjacent than it was to any (mis)feature of PF2 (aside from being a “modern” D&D, which is presumably non-negotiable).

I find the modules for pF (both 1E and 2E) to generally be tedious affairs. As an example to the OP, if I'm going to sink a few hours into designing NPCs and maps for a VTT, I would rather do my own stuff than tediously translate someone else's work. That said....I am very low impact in VTT, and make sure my players know I have no interest in competing with the GMs who are good at finding time and skill to make elaborate maps with lighting effects; I run it like a narrative story, just like I do at the tabletop, and keep the maps to a necessary minimum.

I ran PF1 APs for a long time. They are time-intensive to prep because they’re not designed to be used at the table by the GM. I also think they lean a little too heavily on curated encounters for my tastes, but it’s the prep burden that’s the real turn-off for me. I don’t have a problem with adventures that set themselves up as useful tools for the GM.

Anyway....I've been running PF2E using my own homebrew scenarios and campaign since it came out and quite enjoy it, though I feel its tight focus on balance as well as the eternal "trap" of burning too many actions to get a third attack that will almost certainly sink you with a fumble is a problem in the design. I actually went back to D&D 3.5 for one of my campaigns to contrast it, and find myself enjoying the old Big Dog original more simply because it feels a little more gonzo and liberating than what PF1E and 2E offer. That said....I also still continue to enjoy D&D 5E a lot, and also prefer how skills are handled in 5E (and 3.5) over PF2E.....so I can't say I am exactly providing a ringing endorsement for PF2E at this point, either.

I feel similarly about our transition to WWN. We liked the unchained action economy in PF1 (using Pathfinder Unchained), but the 3e-style action economy in WWN seems more our speed. It gets rid of bad ideas from 3e like the full attack action while adding some tactical actions. It just flows better for us (especially with side-based initiative allowing PCs to coordinate with each other). If the party needs to take down a heavily-armored foe, they can Make a Swarm Attack. If the party loses initiative, and they’re in danger of getting clobbered, they can Make a Snap Attack to attack out of turn and try to bring down the enemy before it can harm anyone. But they could also use Total Defense to try to make the attack miss and avoid shock damage. There’s a tactical element without needing to be really sophisticated about it.

 

[kenada]

And there's not much good to say about 5e from where I sit other than the fact its well distributed.

This is probably why there is so much written about hacking 5e adventures versus comparatively little for PF2. The audience for 5e is huge, so the smart thing to do as a creator is put out 5e stuff.

 

[kenada]

I never got to that level of familiarity, sadly. Had my AP campaigns worked, I'd have liked to convert a big adventure I wrote for OSR for potential publication in PF2 (since I did some design in 3.5/PF1). But I figured if I couldn't even run a straightforward AP in a satisfactory way, I had no business designing my own adventures.

Is a level of familiarity really required though? While its presentation doesn’t do it any favors, PF2 isn’t really doing anything substantially different from other D&D-likes. Anyway, having tried to run a few APs without success, it seems like you now know what doesn’t work for your style.

Not that I’m saying to give PF2 a third try using your own material. I’m very sympathetic towards running the game you want to run, having made that transition myself.

All the effort I put into the VTT design was to help my table management during play. I didn't want to be looking up monster stats during combat, repeating unique monster attack effects every time a player had to make a save, etc. For me it was important, though not for every GM.

The amount of work it takes to put together a VTT game, especially when a system isn’t one of the popular ones with all the work done for you, is one of the reasons why I loath using a VTT. I also thinks it pushes you towards a battlemap-focused style of play or to provide lots of props and feelies. I don’t really have the time or inclination to put together stuff like the fancy landing pages like I saw get shared in the Foundry subreddit.